Video Proof of the differences of 1 3/4", 2 1/2" , fog nozzle vs. Smoothbore. This should settle any arguement!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Chris Leier on June 12, 2009 at 1:48pm

Mike, I am not sure if I'm missing something, but I do not see any links to any videos here. Please point me in the right direction.
Thanks, Chris

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Permalink Reply by Dave Stacy on June 12, 2009 at 2:51pm

I always knew that there had to be some reason why all of our attack lines have smoothbore nozzles.......

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on June 12, 2009 at 5:19pm

The links are in the High Rise Group. I'm tryin to get others to check out the group. Yes, it is a cheap ploy, I know

Chris Leier said:

Mike, I am not sure if I'm missing something, but I do not see any links to any videos here. Please point me in the right direction.
Thanks, Chris

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Permalink Reply by Jason Gennaro on June 14, 2009 at 8:04am

Try this to help you get there:

http://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?groupUrl=high...


Mike Walker said:

The links are in the High Rise Group. I'm tryin to get others to check out the group. Yes, it is a cheap ploy, I know

Chris Leier said:

Mike, I am not sure if I'm missing something, but I do not see any links to any videos here. Please point me in the right direction.
Thanks, Chris

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Permalink Reply by Jason Gennaro on June 14, 2009 at 8:22am

I'll agree for standpipe ops with limited pressures solid stream is the way to go because of the GPM's. My issue with the solid stream is the problems associated with advancing the attack hose. "Generally speaking" with lower pressures that the solid stream requires you'll have a harder time advancing the hose due to kinks. Again.......generally speaking you'll need more time and staffing to advance the same hose with a solid stream versus fog. This is my opinion using the experience I have and testing I've done.

Jason

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Permalink Reply by Antiquefirelt on June 14, 2009 at 8:35am

Jason Gennaro said:

I'll agree for standpipe ops with limited pressures solid stream is the way to go because of the GPM's. My issue with the solid stream is the problems associated with advancing the attack hose. "Generally speaking" with lower pressures that the solid stream requires you'll have a harder time advancing the hose due to kinks. Again.......generally speaking you'll need more time and staffing to advance the same hose with a solid stream versus fog. This is my opinion using the experience I have and testing I've done.

Jason

For many. it maybe not that simple anymore, with many FD's using low pressure fog nozzles. Pressure is pressure, regardless of the tip. Good stretches and teamwork can overcome the kinks.
We're finally going to include smoothbores on our attack line options. In the testing and drilling phase we found that regardless of the "rules" we can increase the pressure of the 15/16" tip to around 65 psi and the stream is still decent and the line is stiff enough to remain very kink resistant. The added benefit was more GPM! The other factor was the hose brand. Of the three hose types we have two were much more kink resistant than the third at 40-50 psi.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Gennaro on June 14, 2009 at 9:42am

Adam,

You're losing me on this pressure is pressure thing. I understand that there are new nozzles that put out good streams with lower pressures but that doesn't change our need for GPM's. GPM's cool and extinguish products of combustion not pressure. It doesn't matter if you use a fog or solid stream you're still going to need volume(GPM's).

My point is that you will need more FF's to stretch and advance a solid stream versus a fog. With a failing economy and decreasing property values most departments are cutting back staffing(at least with the departments here in Florida). Teamwork and training will help avoiding/mitigating kink issues; however, the fact remains staffing levels are lower and we need to utilize the easiest/fastest method for attack line depolyment possible. That attack line(in my opinion) is the fog nozzle.

I'll tell ya what.....take your fog nozzle pre-connect and solid stream nozzle pre-connect and test them. Get a typically staffed engine company and have them deploy an attack line at a bread and butter single family residential structure. Make sure they deploy the line through the front yard(around cars and bushes), charge it, then advance it in the structure around a few walls/corners. You'll be suprised how often that solid stream kinks regardless of the brand of hose or size of solid tip used! I did this and know the results but I would like to see if somebody else has done it and what the results were. If you do it please post up your findings. Thank you.

Jason

Adam Miceli said:

Jason Gennaro said:

I'll agree for standpipe ops with limited pressures solid stream is the way to go because of the GPM's. My issue with the solid stream is the problems associated with advancing the attack hose. "Generally speaking" with lower pressures that the solid stream requires you'll have a harder time advancing the hose due to kinks. Again.......generally speaking you'll need more time and staffing to advance the same hose with a solid stream versus fog. This is my opinion using the experience I have and testing I've done.

Jason

For many. it maybe not that simple anymore, with many FD's using low pressure fog nozzles. Pressure is pressure, regardless of the tip. Good stretches and teamwork can overcome the kinks.
We're finally going to include smoothbores on our attack line options. In the testing and drilling phase we found that regardless of the "rules" we can increase the pressure of the 15/16" tip to around 65 psi and the stream is still decent and the line is stiff enough to remain very kink resistant. The added benefit was more GPM! The other factor was the hose brand. Of the three hose types we have two were much more kink resistant than the third at 40-50 psi.

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Permalink Reply by Antiquefirelt on June 14, 2009 at 4:21pm

Jason Gennaro said:

Adam,
You're losing me on this pressure is pressure thing.

Jason, Sorry my point wasn't as clear as it could have been. I was noting that it's not a smoothbore vs. fog thing, but an issue due to nozzle pressure. A low pressure fog nozzle (50 psi) will present the same problems that a 50 psi smoothbore nozzle would. I understand this is likely not your case, but could be in many places where low pressure fog nozzle have been replacing 100psi NP models.
As I noted we've tested our setups using 50 psi smoothbores, a 50 psi Vindicator nozzle and our standard 100 psi fog nozzles. At 50 psi the line was more likely to kink and all firefighters were instructed not to pass kinks. A slight increase in psi to 65, made the kinks a bit less likely. Our cheaper brand hose tended to kink much more readily, where the higher end Ponn Supreme and Ponn Conquest remain fairly kink resistant. Our final result was the dertermination that we would field all three nozzles. The two 50 psi will be connected tot he same wyed discharge flowing 180 and 200 gpm (SB and Vindicator) and the fog would be on it's own discharge with a 150 gpm target flow as at 180-200 gpm the line became much more difficult to advance due to stiffness and nozzle reaction (the opposite issue).

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Permalink Reply by Jason Gennaro on June 14, 2009 at 5:09pm

That makes more sense regarding the pressure issue. I don't know why a department would want to replace a traditional fog with a low pressure fog and maintain 50 PSI for an attack line but that's just me. I know that TFT makes a 50PSI/150GPM combo nozzle but like you said.......you'll have the same problems deploying and advancing.

Adam Miceli said:

Jason Gennaro said:

Adam,
You're losing me on this pressure is pressure thing.

Jason, Sorry my point wasn't as clear as it could have been. I was noting that it's not a smoothbore vs. fog thing, but an issue due to nozzle pressure. A low pressure fog nozzle (50 psi) will present the same problems that a 50 psi smoothbore nozzle would. I understand this is likely not your case, but could be in many places where low pressure fog nozzle have been replacing 100psi NP models.
As I noted we've tested our setups using 50 psi smoothbores, a 50 psi Vindicator nozzle and our standard 100 psi fog nozzles. At 50 psi the line was more likely to kink and all firefighters were instructed not to pass kinks. A slight increase in psi to 65, made the kinks a bit less likely. Our cheaper brand hose tended to kink much more readily, where the higher end Ponn Supreme and Ponn Conquest remain fairly kink resistant. Our final result was the dertermination that we would field all three nozzles. The two 50 psi will be connected tot he same wyed discharge flowing 180 and 200 gpm (SB and Vindicator) and the fog would be on it's own discharge with a 150 gpm target flow as at 180-200 gpm the line became much more difficult to advance due to stiffness and nozzle reaction (the opposite issue).

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Permalink Reply by Brian Arnold on June 14, 2009 at 5:16pm

Gentlemen,
I may be mistaken, but I believe the point of the video is to show why you should use 2 1/2 with a smooth bore on standpipe operations. Especially with extremely low pressures as was the case of One Meridian plaza fire. If you are hooking up a fog nozzle of any size on a standpipe operation, you will most likely not have water regardless of the size hose you bring. A 2 1/2 should be used on all commercial and highrise operations due to the need for high gpm and reflext time to get to the fire. We put the first 2 1/2 into operation with 3 personnel and can advance about 50' before needing assistance from the 2nd due engine. With 6 personnel on the line we have no problems moving it the full stretch of 200'. We only carry smoothbore on our high rise loads. .

Jason, we have found just the opposite in the advancement of sb vs fog. With our old nozzles and the proper pressure to get the needed gpm you needed more personnel to make the pinch points because of the stiffness of the hose and to handle the nozzle reaction. Then came along our "new" low psi, high gpm fog nozzles. Same problems with these that you would encounter with a sb, you must work the pinch points or it kinks. The major differences between the new fog and our sb's is that I get more gpm out of the sb and can feel that I have a kink much more quickly than the fog. Typical operations for us in a SFD is to have a nozzleman and officer advancing the line and the leave the 3rd man at the door to advance hose. Since I'm the officer, I would love to be able to have another man to make the advance and let me concentrate only on fire conditions and crew safety but as you stated everyone is feeling the effects of the budget crunches. Crews must practice on "stretching and advancing" hose rather than "piling and pulling"; regardless of which nozzle you choose.
Good conversation, keep it going......
Brian

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Permalink Reply by Jason Gennaro on June 14, 2009 at 5:43pm

I am familiar with the issues at Meridian plaza. I think Mike needs to change the topic to " Why solid stream is better for standpipe operations". That's why the conversation has branched off to solid vs fog. In my personal opinion it doesn't matter as long as you get the GPM.

Regarding your research with the solid vs fog......I think a lot of the results are going to be skewed because the crews that we use are subjective. You have more FF's on your crew, your crew may be more familiar with hose management, you use different nozzles and hose, et cetera. I think the only way to get real results would be to use the same hose, nozzles, structures, hose length, and fire trucks. Maybe I can get some grant money for that?

Brian Arnold said:

Gentlemen,
I may be mistaken, but I believe the point of the video is to show why you should use 2 1/2 with a smooth bore on standpipe operations. Especially with extremely low pressures as was the case of One Meridian plaza fire. If you are hooking up a fog nozzle of any size on a standpipe operation, you will most likely not have water regardless of the size hose you bring. A 2 1/2 should be used on all commercial and highrise operations due to the need for high gpm and reflext time to get to the fire. We put the first 2 1/2 into operation with 3 personnel and can advance about 50' before needing assistance from the 2nd due engine. With 6 personnel on the line we have no problems moving it the full stretch of 200'. We only carry smoothbore on our high rise loads. .

Jason, we have found just the opposite in the advancement of sb vs fog. With our old nozzles and the proper pressure to get the needed gpm you needed more personnel to make the pinch points because of the stiffness of the hose and to handle the nozzle reaction. Then came along our "new" low psi, high gpm fog nozzles. Same problems with these that you would encounter with a sb, you must work the pinch points or it kinks. The major differences between the new fog and our sb's is that I get more gpm out of the sb and can feel that I have a kink much more quickly than the fog. Typical operations for us in a SFD is to have a nozzleman and officer advancing the line and the leave the 3rd man at the door to advance hose. Since I'm the officer, I would love to be able to have another man to make the advance and let me concentrate only on fire conditions and crew safety but as you stated everyone is feeling the effects of the budget crunches. Crews must practice on "stretching and advancing" hose rather than "piling and pulling"; regardless of which nozzle you choose.
Good conversation, keep it going......
Brian

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on June 14, 2009 at 6:23pm

Maybe I should change the name of the posting, I actually considered calling it " My Little Pony is named Francheska" but that didn't seem to hit the mark either....... :)

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