Vent , Enter, Search Video and Size Up

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on November 23, 2008 at 11:46am

I saw this video the other day and it is amazing to me that nobody was seriously hurt!

You can see even before they get that ladder to the window they already have fire showing in that room. That right there should tell you that as soon as you give that fire a place to vent it is going to vent. Without taking that into consideration they go ahead and throw the ladder to the window and take it out at the same time. The fire continues to grow and still nobody thinks it is a bad idea to head into the room. The first ff hits the room and pretty much dives right in, the second guy climbs the ladder and starts to head in as fire races for the window. If that fire wouldn't have pushed him back I am sure that he would have continued into the room as well!

If you look in the next window you will see that there was also a ff there who appeared to be getting ready to make entry into that room. He actually took the time to evaluate the situation he had at hand and decided that it was probably not safe to enter. As the first room flashed heavy fire started to show in the second room and i am betting that second room went the way of the first not long after.

I am all for going in after possible victims, but do you really think that there was anyone alive in either of those rooms? There are always two life hazards at fire scenes them and us and the US part is always first and foremost. I think the only size-up factors that were considered were the occupancy and life hazards. I don't think anyone took the time to see where this fire was, where it was going or just how much fire was actually there. Tunnel vision has lead me down some paths a time or two and i think that is what happened here.

Permalink Reply by Joe McClelland on November 23, 2008 at 3:01pm

I totally agree Chris.

What was the benifit part of the risk benifit part of the size-up the f/f should have done before entering the window? I am by no means saying we don't make an attempt at checking for victims and I am sure most on here, myself included, have gone into some spots we should not have gone into. But nothing inside that window view had a winning outcome anyway it was looked at.

With the amount of fire showing already, I am sure the room was lit up somewhat, maybe enough to see some of the floor, the top of the bed... Maybe I am wrong, but the closet would be the only thing not visable from the ladder. It is easy to monday morning quarterback them, but I don't think I would have sent my guys in there. If it was me on the ladder, I would have looked as good as I could, but the definate up-coming flash conditions would have kept me from going in, unless I saw for sure a victim.

The guy on the ladder about to go into the other window either read the conditions or figured out that what was in the other room will surley be coming to his room. The BAG method works well here. Where has the fire Ben, where is it At and where is it Going. In this case it was going to the next room. Good call be not going in.

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on November 23, 2008 at 5:41pm

I think this video is an excellent learning tool. It shows a lack of the basic understanding of fire behavior and discipline. I have noticed in a lot of videos, that people are surprised when they horizontally vent and the place lights up when its gets the oxygen it needs. This should not be a surprise to anyone on the fireground.

Before he breaks the window you can see a glow in the room. As he goes in there the room is starting to go pretty good. I think he should have took a good look, determined that the extent of the fire was so that nobody would make it and went back down. What amazes me even more than that is the second ff follows him and is just about to go in. What was he thinking. It looks like at one point he was in the flame. This shows zero discipline on his part.

I do not know if they did any size up except which ladder they needed to get to the window. If you are going to be working without a hoseline, you need to watch for changing conditions. As Chris said, it seems there was tunnel vision going on.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 23, 2008 at 6:01pm

Group,
This is a post from Capt Rick Van Sant from the Indy FD who was the FF that went into the window. I'm putting this on the page as way to clarifiy some of what was seen on the fire ground. This was from Vent,enter,search.com


well, here goes my first website post ever,but when my friends said my 15 minutes was happening, i had to look.
I’m the guy in the video, and against my better judgement, i feel the need to set this thing straight.
First off, i’m a captain in indianapolis, and have 23 years in the busiest companies in the city. I’ve been to a couple of fires.
Because you weren’t there, i would tell you to watch the video again after i explain things, and maybe you’ll think differently.
This was a 4:00 am fire dispatched as entrapment, with excitement in the dispatchers voice. We were the first ladder company on the scene, and we were met with cars in the driveway, and neighbors screaming that there was a woman in that room.
Because of the involvement in the rest of the house, VES was going to be the only option on this one.
When we vent the window with the ladder, it looks like the room is burning, but the flames you see are coming from the hallway, and entering through the top of the bedroom doorway. Watch it again and you’ll see the fire keeps rolling in and across the ceiling.
When i get to the window sill, the queen-sized bed is directly against the window wall, so there is no way to “check the floor” like the textbook geeks gigged me for not doing. Notice that you continue to see my feet going in, because i’m on the bed.
Believe me, in the beginning, this was a tenable room both for me and for any victim that would have been in there. How else could i have been on the bed, 3 feet above the floor, calmly entering. Trust me when i say that i know what hot is, and this was no hotter than any other fire i’ve been in.
My goal was to get to the door and close it, just like VES is supposed to be done. We do it successfully all the time.
When i reached the other side of the bed, i dropped to the floor and began trying to close the door. Unfortunately, due to debris on the floor, the door would not close.
Conditions were still quite tenable at this point, but i knew with the amount of fire entering at the upper level, and smoke conditions changing, things were going to go south fast. As stated earlier, i’ve been doing this for 23 years, and i know fire behavior.
I kept my eyes on my exit point, and finished my search, including the closet, which had no doors on it. Just as i was a few feet from the window, the room lit off, and the rest is history, and fodder for all the self-proclaimed experts.
It’s hard for me to imagine that firefighters who weren’t there can find so much fault with a firefighter who did exactly what we’re supposed to do. For you textbook geeks, that means risking a lot to save a savable life. Like i said earlier, when i first made this room, it was NOT on fire like the video makes it look. I’ll give you this much; once the flashover occurred, no civilian could have survived, but if she would have been in there, maybe, just maybe i could have gotten her out before it happened.
I have to wonder what you would be saying if the video showed me just staying at the top of the ladder, never entering like many of you suggested, and later we found her corpse lying on the other side of the bed. Instead of calling me an idiot, you’d call me a coward. I’ll take idiot any time!
To “Dave” from my department who said he’d guess that i would probably look back now and say it wasn’t the smartest thing to do, you’re absolutely right. It was the ONLY thing to do. And if i’m faced with that exact same situation a hundred more times, i’ll be in that window every time, because i’m a fireman.
And if anyone wonders why i was aware of my surroundings at all times, why i was able to recognize when flashover was imminent, and why i pulled off a head-first ladder slide without a hitch….TRAINING!
To the guy who said i had no facepiece on..you’re freakin’ joking right? What you see dangling is my hand-lantern. Do you carry one?
And to the guy who says i have no tool, look at the axe handle sticking out of my SCBA belt. It’s not in my hand, because when i do a search, i know when i’m touching a body with my hand. When i hit it with a tool, it’s anyone’s guess what i’m touching. But i ALWAYS have a tool.
In closing, i would only suggest that when you watch a video from now on, remember that you weren’t there.
And if you were faced with the same situation, with the exact same conditions i was faced with, if you wouldn’t have done the same thing, then i’m glad you’re not on my job.
stay safe brothers

Permalink Reply by Joe McClelland on November 23, 2008 at 10:01pm

To the Capt.

As I said in my first reply, it is easy to monday morning quarterback when we were not there. You did what that scene called for and I am glad you would do it again. Now that we have more info on the job, if I was given the info you had and the same entry points, I would have done the same thing. Can't get any better than going in the room the victim is said to be in. Were conditions a lil' rough, yes, but what is this job about? We get paid to risk ours to save theirs, correct? I feel that we as a fire service are getting away from that a little. This new generation of firefighters, not all-but some, I don't feel have what it takes. If they can't put the fire out with a delete or backspace button, they are screwed. They played playstation and Atari, oops Atari was us, while not getting the needed hands on tool experience. Not only with an axe, but with a ratchet or Phillips head. This is becoming a large problem and I only see it getting tougher. But as always, we will have the "old" guys the boss knows can get the job done and it will. I just hope that their is always an "old" guy around.

But back to your fire. Textbook geeks will always be there looking at thoes of us that are doers with a raised eyebrow. Thats fine, they will sit in the command van and be where they can get hurt. Better for us. Like you said, " Instead of calling me an idiot, you’d call me a coward. I’ll take idiot any time!" AMEN BROTHER! And for the record, I have been called that as well. Idiot that is.

Stay safe and keep those Hooseirs and corn safe Brother.


Jim Mason said:

Group,
This is a post from Capt Rick Van Sant from the Indy FD who was the FF that went into the window. I'm putting this on the page as way to clarifiy some of what was seen on the fire ground. This was from Vent,enter,search.com


well, here goes my first website post ever,but when my friends said my 15 minutes was happening, i had to look.
I’m the guy in the video, and against my better judgement, i feel the need to set this thing straight.
First off, i’m a captain in indianapolis, and have 23 years in the busiest companies in the city. I’ve been to a couple of fires.
Because you weren’t there, i would tell you to watch the video again after i explain things, and maybe you’ll think differently.
This was a 4:00 am fire dispatched as entrapment, with excitement in the dispatchers voice. We were the first ladder company on the scene, and we were met with cars in the driveway, and neighbors screaming that there was a woman in that room.
Because of the involvement in the rest of the house, VES was going to be the only option on this one.
When we vent the window with the ladder, it looks like the room is burning, but the flames you see are coming from the hallway, and entering through the top of the bedroom doorway. Watch it again and you’ll see the fire keeps rolling in and across the ceiling.
When i get to the window sill, the queen-sized bed is directly against the window wall, so there is no way to “check the floor” like the textbook geeks gigged me for not doing. Notice that you continue to see my feet going in, because i’m on the bed.
Believe me, in the beginning, this was a tenable room both for me and for any victim that would have been in there. How else could i have been on the bed, 3 feet above the floor, calmly entering. Trust me when i say that i know what hot is, and this was no hotter than any other fire i’ve been in.
My goal was to get to the door and close it, just like VES is supposed to be done. We do it successfully all the time.
When i reached the other side of the bed, i dropped to the floor and began trying to close the door. Unfortunately, due to debris on the floor, the door would not close.
Conditions were still quite tenable at this point, but i knew with the amount of fire entering at the upper level, and smoke conditions changing, things were going to go south fast. As stated earlier, i’ve been doing this for 23 years, and i know fire behavior.
I kept my eyes on my exit point, and finished my search, including the closet, which had no doors on it. Just as i was a few feet from the window, the room lit off, and the rest is history, and fodder for all the self-proclaimed experts.
It’s hard for me to imagine that firefighters who weren’t there can find so much fault with a firefighter who did exactly what we’re supposed to do. For you textbook geeks, that means risking a lot to save a savable life. Like i said earlier, when i first made this room, it was NOT on fire like the video makes it look. I’ll give you this much; once the flashover occurred, no civilian could have survived, but if she would have been in there, maybe, just maybe i could have gotten her out before it happened.
I have to wonder what you would be saying if the video showed me just staying at the top of the ladder, never entering like many of you suggested, and later we found her corpse lying on the other side of the bed. Instead of calling me an idiot, you’d call me a coward. I’ll take idiot any time!
To “Dave” from my department who said he’d guess that i would probably look back now and say it wasn’t the smartest thing to do, you’re absolutely right. It was the ONLY thing to do. And if i’m faced with that exact same situation a hundred more times, i’ll be in that window every time, because i’m a fireman.
And if anyone wonders why i was aware of my surroundings at all times, why i was able to recognize when flashover was imminent, and why i pulled off a head-first ladder slide without a hitch….TRAINING!
To the guy who said i had no facepiece on..you’re freakin’ joking right? What you see dangling is my hand-lantern. Do you carry one?
And to the guy who says i have no tool, look at the axe handle sticking out of my SCBA belt. It’s not in my hand, because when i do a search, i know when i’m touching a body with my hand. When i hit it with a tool, it’s anyone’s guess what i’m touching. But i ALWAYS have a tool.
In closing, i would only suggest that when you watch a video from now on, remember that you weren’t there.
And if you were faced with the same situation, with the exact same conditions i was faced with, if you wouldn’t have done the same thing, then i’m glad you’re not on my job.
stay safe brothers

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 24, 2008 at 3:56pm

Hey Cap, I enjoyed your explaination to the video clip. It certainly sounds like everything was by the numbers until the door screwed you up.
- I personally teach VES, I perform VES and I believe in the soundness of the technique.
-Is VES risky and/or dangerous. Yes it is. So why do it? Because it works and produces result; ie live victims.
-Is VES for every fire? Of course not. But that is exactly why it should be a task relegated to the senior/experienced member to perform. That way when the tough decisions have to be made the member will have the experience, milage and horsepower to make the correct decision and execute it while minimizing danger.
-Stay safe, Michael

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 25, 2008 at 5:41pm

Brick,

I'm with you on this. Having seen the video on another site and reading alot of the post that were not nearly as thoughtful as they have been here, I left the following post in support of the good Capt. from Indy. I felt that the criticism was over the top and unjustified. Perhaps it was a little close to home for me as a past victim of this type of situation. Here is that post:

I hate to get all idealistic on you, but maybe this will help. As a Battalion Chief, I have a long-standing philosophy regarding the operations of the first due companies, I believe that the initial companies can do no wrong. In other words, I don’t second guess their actions based on what I see when I arrive. I trust that they made the best decision with the information available to them at the time. As we all know, decisions on the fireground are often life and death, always time sensitive and have to be made with little information. My only choice is to quickly evaluate the current situation status and determine if we are winning or losing and if changes need to be made based on the up to the minute information.

I use the same outlook when viewing videos that I was not involved in at the time and especially when I have no direct knowledge of the situation. I have a particular interest in this type of situation and I understand (although not exactly) what Capt. Van Sant must have been feeling while being “ripped” by anonymous bloggers who had no involvement in the fire on the tape and no direct knowledge of the situation. In the mid 90”s, I was involved in a similar situation where a video of a fire I was operating at was circulated around. For years, the wrong information was passed around as this tape was used in countless fire service classes. You may have seen it; it was a grocery store fire with an eventual collapse of a very large bowstring truss roof. While taking a break during the fire, a reporter who had been told that the crews that I was responsible for had nearly been injured or killed, asked about our thoughts on this Christmas Eve in temperatures of –20 degrees. I said that I was looking forward to seeing my kids and going home for Christmas in the morning. We were not aware that there was a crew operating on the other side of the building that did actually make a narrow escape as the roof collapsed. In any case, my crew was identified for years as the crew that had the near miss. I can’t tell you how many times I was asked questions, or had to hear from people that were at classes that my crew members had unnecessarily placed themselves in peril by operating on a bow-string truss roof that was clearly (on the tape) well involved.

The truth was that as the officer on the third arriving truck, I asked upon arrival what type of roof the store had. As I was given our assignment by the I.C., I was told that the store had a bowstring truss roof and that it was a “write-off’ and no one was to go onto the roof. The plan was to begin massive trench cutting operations on the connected buildings in an effort to \ save the two connected buildings (which we did). We never stepped foot on that roof; however, we had to answer the questions for years and I took it very personally.

Capt. Van Sant was “lucky” to have the opportunity to address the issue on this site. As I said earlier, he was much more measured and kinder in his response than I would have been. The bad news is, he will not have the chance to address the untold numbers of uninformed firefighters across the country and beyond who will jump to conclusions, make unfair criticism and spread the wrong message. PLEASE, do Capt Van Sant and all of us really a solid on this, if you hear the wrong story, set it straight, tell your crews the truth and do what you can to protect the reputation of one of our own who clearly deserves our gratitude as a great example of what it means to be an American Firefighter

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on November 25, 2008 at 11:41pm

This post is primarily to Jim and Art but also to anyone else who has experience with VES:

This last year me and others on my department, Oklahoma City, introduced VES to the entire department. I and other BC's had our entire shift practice this skill and we showed them videos about the tactic and touted this as great tool to use at appropriate times. This last week I came across the afore mentioned video on vententersearch.com. When I first saw the video I saw what I thought were obvious signs of flashover prior to the Captains entry into the room. I showed the video to my offiers and expressed my opinion as to this video depicting an example of when a good tactic is applied inappropriately.

Now, much to my suprise, men that I respect are claiming that this video in fact shows a stellar performance. I'm perplexed. I have to admit that I responded in the comments section of the video and my comments were too harsh. I can definitely understand making a hasty decision on the scene in an attempt to rescue a hepless victim. I have been quilty of that myself,believe it or not.

Gentlemen, call me what you will, suggest I find another line of work if you want, but as a Chief Officer I can not see me slapping one of my officers on the back if they performed VES in that situation.

The conflict I have with this is I tell my officers to look for the signs of flashover, I send them to schools to sharpen their ability to avoid death and injury. I send them to schools so that they can perform aggressive tactics efficiently. I advocate aggressive tactics but also advocate those tactics be tempered with sound judgement. Then a video that shows the precursers of flashover as clearly as I've ever seen on a video, and a firefighter deliberately climbing into that environment, is supposed to be applauded?

Now as my superiors, collegues,and subordinates look at me, as one of the guys who brought this tactic to my department, with their heads slightly tilted due to this video and the praises being heaped on this firefighter, I just have to ask (with all due respect mind you); Is it appropriate to make VES in a room about to flashover or not? Is it appropriate to enter a room that is flashing over? If it is, please help me explain this to my people and to the other departments I've taught this to.

Just how exactly am I to justify the actions taken on this video? Again, I mean no disrespect, I just don't see how we can, on one hand, warn our brothers and sisters about flashover and how to avoid getting caught in one, and then on the other hand, advocate ignoring those signs when we "feel" like it is necessary.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 26, 2008 at 9:41am

Mike,

My point was and is, I was not there to evaluate the actual conditions and therefore must trust that the man who was. I would never advocate the performance of a VES operation in a room with obvious signs of an impending flashover. As I have posted here and taught, VES is a high-risk operation that requires adherence to a narrow set of criteria when determining if it is a viable operation.

I made no comment endorsing the appropriateness of entering a room about to flashover. On the other hand, I still believe that we can’t get the full picture of the situation memorialized in the video because we were not there and we have to take the word of the man who was.

If….. the situation was as it appears in the video, I agree with everything you said. If, on the other hand, the situation was as described by Capt. Van Sant as the one and only man who actually saw, experienced and evaluated the situation at the time, I stand by every thing I said in my earlier posts in support of Capt. Van Sant’s reputation.

Have a great holiday,

Art

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 26, 2008 at 1:28pm

Entering a room for VES comes down to what this page on the site is really all about, making decsions. Capt Van Sant makes the case that he felt he could make the VES operation work for him in the situation based on the information given at the time. Is the VES operation used for a "justified " reason based on the situation? Based on what the post was that was taken from vententersearch.com. he says that there was a report that victims were in that room. The report must have been believeable based on the Capt's 23 years of fire service exprience.
Is it "reasonable " to enter the room? Before entering the room, could the light from the fire in the hallway give some illumination into the search area to determine if anyone was laying on the floor and the bed? Maybe. And I'm not saying it to second guess the Capt. but to say is there something we can learn from here? I think so. Let's say that there was a person laying on the floor that could be seen from the window position. That flashover is so quick in the room from the hallway. Does it give us concern for our safety if we enter knowing we need to get the lift of the vicitm to the sill? Again, maybe it does. Is there a hose line available in the area of the entry into the room? Can the truck officer change the engine operation to make rescue the priority over extinguishment in another part of the building? Is there a relationship between the truck officer and the engine officer to make a instananeous change of the hose startech without a prolonged fire ground debate on your dept or mine? Does your dept or mine play the coffee table "what if" game on fire ground size up and decisions
Again, let me say I'm not second guessing the Capt because any one who has been following the culture of this page will know I'm just but working towards some specifcs to try to learn from when any one of OUR TEAM , comes face to face with the same situation.
If we can see the vicitm, should we look to see if the door can be closed before entering, also? Maybe. I don;t know how big the bedroom is, but if it was a small room maybe we should consider it before going in the window.
Group,
I've been it situations where I've come out smoking also. Afterwards, a deeper assessment is played out in my mind(over and over). The reason for this is I didn't have that specific experince to compare the current situation to. I think that is where the fire service is as a whole. Some times departments don;t have any experince to compare their current fire situation to, so there is no perspective on what to do. Training helps but decisions are what is needed based on specific assessment of the problem. When there is no perspective, our members learn from their own first hand experince. Most times it works. About 1/3 of the time out of the 100 or so FF's killed in action every year, it doesn't. But that is what we are doing here, working on making decisions on the fire ground. What do you think?

I give the Capt. alot of credit for going in the room first and not sending one of his FF's. That is leadership to me. First in last out for the officer.


Art Zern said:

Mike,

My point was and is, I was not there to evaluate the actual conditions and therefore must trust that the man who was. I would never advocate the performance of a VES operation in a room with obvious signs of an impending flashover. As I have posted here and taught, VES is a high-risk operation that requires adherence to a narrow set of criteria when determining if it is a viable operation.

I made no comment endorsing the appropriateness of entering a room about to flashover. On the other hand, I still believe that we can’t get the full picture of the situation memorialized in the video because we were not there and we have to take the word of the man who was.

If….. the situation was as it appears in the video, I agree with everything you said. If, on the other hand, the situation was as described by Capt. Van Sant as the one and only man who actually saw, experienced and evaluated the situation at the time, I stand by every thing I said in my earlier posts in support of Capt. Van Sant’s reputation.

Have a great holiday,

Art

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 26, 2008 at 2:14pm

-Art, very well said indeed. You really hit the matter squarely. The bottom line is that what the video shows and what Capt. van Sant states he saw at the top of the ladder differ and therefore we must take the word of a professional and experienced firefighter over video clips.
-After all, I'm sure we have all seen photos or video (as Art stated in his first post) that just had a miss-leading or inaccurate perspective so as to slight what the viewer actually saw. Consider that the video angle doesn't actually depict the interior of the room, rather a very small portion of ceiling and through the window and the glows being reflected therein.
-Pictures capture a nanosecond in time; video is more reliable, provided that the perspective is good. The ONLY way to get a true record of this event is if the camera were at the top of the ladder with Capt. van Sant.
-To reiterate, I personally teach VES, I perform VES and I believe in the soundness of the technique.
-Is VES risky and/or dangerous. Yes it is. So why do it? Because it works and produces result; ie live victims.
-Is VES for every fire? Of course not. But that is exactly why it should be a task relegated to the senior/experienced member to perform. That way when the tough decisions have to be made the member will have the experience, milage and horsepower to make the correct decision and execute it while minimizing danger.
Be safe
BRICK

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on November 26, 2008 at 2:45pm

I have watched the video a couple of times before I typed this, so hopefully this comes right. VES is a risky , dangeous thing and only should the decision yes or no be made by that experienced Company Officer. To Captain Van Sant, my lid is off to you Cap. We do what we do, to preserve life and property, but not get ourselves killed doing it. That becomes the biggest grey area at times, that we must overcome, hopefully, through our training and experience. I agree with Jim and Michael, VES done properly, does produce live victims and this is truely an example of first in last out leadership, on the part of Capt. Van Sant. This group definately gives all of us oportunities to think and improve ourselves.

Stay Safe Brothers!, Happy Thanksgiving
Jeff

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