What is your departments' primary ventilation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 1, 2008 at 6:46pm

I like the acronym also and I think that it keeps everyone on the same page if it is drilled on. It's gets us from arrival to picking up hose. It puts the a chronological order to the solution of the problem. It also works for many different types of buildings.


Art Zern said:

Jim,

SCSCVEOS has been part of my thought process since being introduced to this acronyn almost 20 years ago by EE and Bobby Hoff in Tactics II. I like it because it reminds to size-up and call for help and gives venting a higher priority than many other prompts.

Thanks Jim

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 1, 2008 at 6:56pm

Brian
Thanks for jumping in, you're always welcome here
Does yor engine officer take out the windows from inside or outside? Maybe it could be the truck officer? Just wondering. I like the idea of having the roof opened unless someone tells them to stop. It gets it going when the situation is difficult so when everyone forgets to tells the roof team affirmatively " to open the roof" it is stil l being done. I once worked for an officer that wanted to tell when to open the roof rather than tell us when to not and of course several times he forgot about it when the situation was tense. We were opening it already, of course.
One of the group members is going to start a discussion on Mcmansions in the near future so we can look to coordination of venting and extinguishment much closer then but how do you keep smoke and heat from going upstairs to the bedrooms in these large buildings with the PPV fan ? I've seen the effects of wind driven fires several times and although they weren't controlled I'm still concerned about driving the fire through the building.

Brian Arnold said:

Jim,
Thanks for the invite, sorry I'm so late getting into conversations. It looks like it's been great so far so I'll add my two cents and meet everyone at the pub in Indy to continue.

We are truly in the middle of the country and have seen the influence of both east coast and west coast ventilation practices over the years. I can say that we don't rely on only one technique but utilize horizontal, vertical and PPV.

For us it's all about location, location, location. Size up of the structure, size and location of the fire and life hazard all dictates what type of ventilation we use.

We cover 660 square miles with the majority of homes being single story single platform type dwellings. Yes we have some of the balloon frame, queen ann's and flat roofed residences but 90% of our structure fires occur in a ranch style home with a 8/12 pitch roof or less.

For the majority of homes in my district, the engine officer will take windows while doing his size up providing entry isn't going to be a problem. Truck will go to roof (2 men) and open up over the fire unless called off by attack crew.

But if you go to the district North of mine, it's loading with 5000 square foot McMansions and 10/12 pitched roofs or greater. Even if you got a h*** quickly, you would need a 20' pole to punch out the ceiling. It just doesn't work for them so they rely heavily on horizontal and PPV.

We are working on educating our personnel on what type of ventilation should be used and what effects it will have on the fire, occupants and building rather than just saying one approach is the only way. Every firefighter should know what the benefits of opening up a roof are as well as the draw backs. Horizontal ventilation can help victims and interior crews or it can let the fire breath a little more and take off if attack crews aren't ready. PPV can do the same thing only much faster if used improperly. Unfortunately I have seen first hand PPV or PPA (whatever you want to call it) used textbook properly only to drive out attack crews. PPV is a relatively new animal to the fire service and still has many unknowns and can be very dangerous.

What I do know after 23 years is that when we get the heat and smoke out of the structure it sure makes life easier on me and my fellow hose draggers and especially victims. Communication between companies, training, building knowledge, proper size up and strong leadership all influence how ventilation will be accomplished on each incident.
I could go on, but I don't have a cold frosty adult beverage and they just called Chow!
Stay safe,
Brian

Permalink Reply by Scott Kleinschmidt on December 1, 2008 at 7:24pm

Nick

We also deploy quints here. We are not total quint, we operate Engine company’s as well. I agree that most times a quint crew can be confused with their role on the fire ground. Most quint crews see themselves as a engine company regardless of how they arrive, therefore our “truck work” has suffered. We have a new COD and he brought on line several 100 foot platforms, these crews are assigned on all fire responses. Their focus well be back to support functions to fire attack “truck work”. When it comes to ventilation we like Capt. Arnold deploy PPV, Natural and Vertical depending on the incident. We are very spread out and encounter all different structure types depending on what part of the city you are in. All of our Engines and Quints carry fans and can easily start PPV if it is a small “room and contents”. If the roof needs opened then one of the Platforms or the Rescue will open up. Our Rescue responds on all commercial, Apartment and 4 plex fires, while the IC dictates what there role will be we usually operate like a truck: vent, search, RIT, and so on. I know a lot of people swear by the quint concept, but like I said above I still like Engine or Truck no questions on what the role is.


Nick Morgan said:

We mostly do horizontal ventilation in St Louis. Good truck work and roof ventilation aren't as common as it used to be, primarily because under the "total quint concept", too many companies assigned to truck work really have an engine company mentality. The specialization of true truck work is all but lost. That's why I want to put more emphasis on truck work in our Academy and dept. training programs, hopefully to help bring this specialty back.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 1, 2008 at 8:01pm

Nick and Scott,

I have always had questions and concerns with the quint concept. However, our trucks (tower ladders0 do have pumps and hose, technically making them quints. As busy as our engine companies are doing their normal work and EMS runs (ALS engines) we feel that the trucks can at least put a hit on a fire if they arrive first and the still engine is on another assignment. This happens not infrequently and again this week. We jokingly started to call the truck (Truck 81) that is in the same house as our busiest engine, Engine 81 because they have had to lead out several times recently.

In any case, we reserve the front of the building for the still truck, and by that I as much of the front as possible. Is there going to be an adjustment peroid when you move away from the quint concept back to truck ops? How does the spotting of appparatus differ under the quint concept or is that the type of issue you were referring to with the engine mentality comment?

Just curious,

Art

Permalink Reply by Scott Kleinschmidt on December 1, 2008 at 8:53pm

We also run across this from time to time. Our platforms are technically big quints: water, hose,pump. This does not happen very often,but when it does they have to size up and decide do they drag hose or vent and search. They will take into consideration as most times the next due engine is only a minute or two behind them. Regardless we always try to hold the front for the first due truck. We will also send the platform on rubish and car fires if all other units are out of the house. All the platform guys come from engines so it is not foreign to them, but their main function still falls to truck work. We try to get them to focus on their primary role and work back from there. We also in addition to our Engines,Quints and Trucks run 2 man squads ( california ) style pick-ups.( although we are trying to phase these out) so we are being told. The plan is bring more engines online and add more staffing on the rigs by dumping these squads. Anyway we get 2 of these on all fires and they can be assigned to support the Engine or Truck. So if a platform arrives they can pump for the squad crew and still perform support functions tell more help arrives.

Art Zern said:

Nick and Scott,

I have always had questions and concerns with the quint concept. However, our trucks (tower ladders0 do have pumps and hose, technically making them quints. As busy as our engine companies are doing their normal work and EMS runs (ALS engines) we feel that the trucks can at least put a hit on a fire if they arrive first and the still engine is on another assignment. This happens not infrequently and again this week. We jokingly started to call the truck (Truck 81) that is in the same house as our busiest engine, Engine 81 because they have had to lead out several times recently.

In any case, we reserve the front of the building for the still truck, and by that I as much of the front as possible. Is there going to be an adjustment peroid when you move away from the quint concept back to truck ops? How does the spotting of appparatus differ under the quint concept or is that the type of issue you were referring to with the engine mentality comment?

Just curious,

Art

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 1, 2008 at 9:14pm

Scott, What's a COD?
I like the engine /truck idea also but it's the opnly typew of dept's I've worked on. I started on a small paid dept in the birbs of Chgo and now the City. I like the idea most likely that there was alawys enough FF's of on the scene to take of what needed. We had mutual aid in the burb dept. I think the concept of single role units makes us diciplined in the functions and makes us coordinate the attack with the other companies on the scene. What do you think, does it?
How does your dept determine what a unit will work as when it arrives to the scene? Also how many FF's toal (with the officer ) are there arriving on the scene on each Quint?

Scott Kleinschmidt said:

Nick

We also deploy quints here. We are not total quint, we operate Engine company’s as well. I agree that most times a quint crew can be confused with their role on the fire ground. Most quint crews see themselves as a engine company regardless of how they arrive, therefore our “truck work” has suffered. We have a new COD and he brought on line several 100 foot platforms, these crews are assigned on all fire responses. Their focus well be back to support functions to fire attack “truck work”. When it comes to ventilation we like Capt. Arnold deploy PPV, Natural and Vertical depending on the incident. We are very spread out and encounter all different structure types depending on what part of the city you are in. All of our Engines and Quints carry fans and can easily start PPV if it is a small “room and contents”. If the roof needs opened then one of the Platforms or the Rescue will open up. Our Rescue responds on all commercial, Apartment and 4 plex fires, while the IC dictates what there role will be we usually operate like a truck: vent, search, RIT, and so on. I know a lot of people swear by the quint concept, but like I said above I still like Engine or Truck no questions on what the role is.


Nick Morgan said:

We mostly do horizontal ventilation in St Louis. Good truck work and roof ventilation aren't as common as it used to be, primarily because under the "total quint concept", too many companies assigned to truck work really have an engine company mentality. The specialization of true truck work is all but lost. That's why I want to put more emphasis on truck work in our Academy and dept. training programs, hopefully to help bring this specialty back.

Permalink Reply by Scott Kleinschmidt on December 2, 2008 at 1:37pm

Jim,
Sorry, Chief of Department ( COD ). I would have to agree that the Engine/Truck makes us more disciplined. We have tried pushing for pre-arrival assignments for a while now with no luck. The admin and several older company officers do not like the idea of being told what they are responsible for upon arrival. We have tried to explain if the first due engine has some SOG’s on their role (pre-arrival) and so does the truck things would work more smoothly. We have also explained these are just guidelines and the incident will always dictate the tactics. They say they don’t want trained “robots” arriving on scene. So to answer your question the company officer decides what he will do upon arrival. This creates problems because most quint guys in a stressful environment will always fall back to what they know and are comfortable with. This will almost always be engine work. We operate 3 per rig with 14 engines 8 quints 4 Platforms 18 squads 1 rescue 1 hazmat. From talking with other metro departments in the Midwest it seems the quint concept has ran its coarse. Seems like some are trying to figure out how to get back to the Engine/Truck way of doing things.


Jim Mason said:

Scott, What's a COD?
I like the engine /truck idea also but it's the opnly typew of dept's I've worked on. I started on a small paid dept in the birbs of Chgo and now the City. I like the idea most likely that there was alawys enough FF's of on the scene to take of what needed. We had mutual aid in the burb dept. I think the concept of single role units makes us diciplined in the functions and makes us coordinate the attack with the other companies on the scene. What do you think, does it?
How does your dept determine what a unit will work as when it arrives to the scene? Also how many FF's toal (with the officer ) are there arriving on the scene on each Quint?

Scott Kleinschmidt said:

Nick

We also deploy quints here. We are not total quint, we operate Engine company’s as well. I agree that most times a quint crew can be confused with their role on the fire ground. Most quint crews see themselves as a engine company regardless of how they arrive, therefore our “truck work” has suffered. We have a new COD and he brought on line several 100 foot platforms, these crews are assigned on all fire responses. Their focus well be back to support functions to fire attack “truck work”. When it comes to ventilation we like Capt. Arnold deploy PPV, Natural and Vertical depending on the incident. We are very spread out and encounter all different structure types depending on what part of the city you are in. All of our Engines and Quints carry fans and can easily start PPV if it is a small “room and contents”. If the roof needs opened then one of the Platforms or the Rescue will open up. Our Rescue responds on all commercial, Apartment and 4 plex fires, while the IC dictates what there role will be we usually operate like a truck: vent, search, RIT, and so on. I know a lot of people swear by the quint concept, but like I said above I still like Engine or Truck no questions on what the role is.


Nick Morgan said:

We mostly do horizontal ventilation in St Louis. Good truck work and roof ventilation aren't as common as it used to be, primarily because under the "total quint concept", too many companies assigned to truck work really have an engine company mentality. The specialization of true truck work is all but lost. That's why I want to put more emphasis on truck work in our Academy and dept. training programs, hopefully to help bring this specialty back.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 2, 2008 at 9:10pm

Oh, it's the chief, that's a funny abriviation. Everything in this business is lettered out. We have general ideas but on what to do but not really SOP/SOG's. So alot of ours is made up from many years of experince also. Another interesting thing is one of our chiefs who had been around a long time says that although depts' with SOP'SOG's are good at what is normal it goes good. But the CFD is better at thinking on our feet when it comes to things need to be made up. I believe there is some truth to that. We are pretty good at fixing the problem when it out of the ordinary. I think I;m going to start a conversation on having SOP's in the modern fire service.

Scott Kleinschmidt said:

Jim,
Sorry, Chief of Department ( COD ). I would have to agree that the Engine/Truck makes us more disciplined. We have tried pushing for pre-arrival assignments for a while now with no luck. The admin and several older company officers do not like the idea of being told what they are responsible for upon arrival. We have tried to explain if the first due engine has some SOG’s on their role (pre-arrival) and so does the truck things would work more smoothly. We have also explained these are just guidelines and the incident will always dictate the tactics. They say they don’t want trained “robots” arriving on scene. So to answer your question the company officer decides what he will do upon arrival. This creates problems because most quint guys in a stressful environment will always fall back to what they know and are comfortable with. This will almost always be engine work. We operate 3 per rig with 14 engines 8 quints 4 Platforms 18 squads 1 rescue 1 hazmat. From talking with other metro departments in the Midwest it seems the quint concept has ran its coarse. Seems like some are trying to figure out how to get back to the Engine/Truck way of doing things.


Jim Mason said:

Scott, What's a COD?
I like the engine /truck idea also but it's the opnly typew of dept's I've worked on. I started on a small paid dept in the birbs of Chgo and now the City. I like the idea most likely that there was alawys enough FF's of on the scene to take of what needed. We had mutual aid in the burb dept. I think the concept of single role units makes us diciplined in the functions and makes us coordinate the attack with the other companies on the scene. What do you think, does it?
How does your dept determine what a unit will work as when it arrives to the scene? Also how many FF's toal (with the officer ) are there arriving on the scene on each Quint?

Scott Kleinschmidt said:

Nick

We also deploy quints here. We are not total quint, we operate Engine company’s as well. I agree that most times a quint crew can be confused with their role on the fire ground. Most quint crews see themselves as a engine company regardless of how they arrive, therefore our “truck work” has suffered. We have a new COD and he brought on line several 100 foot platforms, these crews are assigned on all fire responses. Their focus well be back to support functions to fire attack “truck work”. When it comes to ventilation we like Capt. Arnold deploy PPV, Natural and Vertical depending on the incident. We are very spread out and encounter all different structure types depending on what part of the city you are in. All of our Engines and Quints carry fans and can easily start PPV if it is a small “room and contents”. If the roof needs opened then one of the Platforms or the Rescue will open up. Our Rescue responds on all commercial, Apartment and 4 plex fires, while the IC dictates what there role will be we usually operate like a truck: vent, search, RIT, and so on. I know a lot of people swear by the quint concept, but like I said above I still like Engine or Truck no questions on what the role is.


Nick Morgan said:

We mostly do horizontal ventilation in St Louis. Good truck work and roof ventilation aren't as common as it used to be, primarily because under the "total quint concept", too many companies assigned to truck work really have an engine company mentality. The specialization of true truck work is all but lost. That's why I want to put more emphasis on truck work in our Academy and dept. training programs, hopefully to help bring this specialty back.

Permalink Reply by Scott Kleinschmidt on December 2, 2008 at 9:52pm

Jim
When i say push SOG's for first arrival company's I mean we have good company officers that know what needs done and think well on the fly. The problem is with the rest of the incident command folks ( I say this in that I believe that there should be a IC and command structure at all alarms) but we have crews that buy way to far into it and can't seem to make a decision with out direction from command. If your second due engine stadges at the plug and waits to be told to lay in there can be a critical delay. If the SOG stated all second due engines will establish water if not done prior to arrival then this is a lose guideline. Now the first due CO has something to stand on if the second due CO had his head up his "well you get the picture" and didn't lay in. This might sound silly, but a lot of metros are dealing with this set of issues. Everyone learned incident command but forgot some common fireground responsabilities. If the SOG states the first due truck Quint or Platform (and their is an engine on scene) is responsable for Vent, Search, Force Entry, laddering ground or aerial, so on and it is up to the truck CO to decide what he does per incident. This keeps the truck from getting caught up in the focus of putting water on the fire. Look at Charleston Sofa Mart Fire, the first due truck ( Platform ) assited in pulling hose and fire attack. They did nothing wrong per their SOP's but was that the best use of the first due truck? I agree you can't and shouldn't replace the ability of guys to make critical decisions and mitigate the incident, but atleast put down what they should focus on.

Jim Mason said:

Oh, it's the chief, that's a funny abriviation. Everything in this business is lettered out. We have general ideas but on what to do but not really SOP/SOG's. So alot of ours is made up from many years of experince also. Another interesting thing is one of our chiefs who had been around a long time says that although depts' with SOP'SOG's are good at what is normal it goes good. But the CFD is better at thinking on our feet when it comes to things need to be made up. I believe there is some truth to that. We are pretty good at fixing the problem when it out of the ordinary. I think I;m going to start a conversation on having SOP's in the modern fire service.

Scott Kleinschmidt said:

Jim,
Sorry, Chief of Department ( COD ). I would have to agree that the Engine/Truck makes us more disciplined. We have tried pushing for pre-arrival assignments for a while now with no luck. The admin and several older company officers do not like the idea of being told what they are responsible for upon arrival. We have tried to explain if the first due engine has some SOG’s on their role (pre-arrival) and so does the truck things would work more smoothly. We have also explained these are just guidelines and the incident will always dictate the tactics. They say they don’t want trained “robots” arriving on scene. So to answer your question the company officer decides what he will do upon arrival. This creates problems because most quint guys in a stressful environment will always fall back to what they know and are comfortable with. This will almost always be engine work. We operate 3 per rig with 14 engines 8 quints 4 Platforms 18 squads 1 rescue 1 hazmat. From talking with other metro departments in the Midwest it seems the quint concept has ran its coarse. Seems like some are trying to figure out how to get back to the Engine/Truck way of doing things.


Jim Mason said:

Scott, What's a COD?
I like the engine /truck idea also but it's the opnly typew of dept's I've worked on. I started on a small paid dept in the birbs of Chgo and now the City. I like the idea most likely that there was alawys enough FF's of on the scene to take of what needed. We had mutual aid in the burb dept. I think the concept of single role units makes us diciplined in the functions and makes us coordinate the attack with the other companies on the scene. What do you think, does it?
How does your dept determine what a unit will work as when it arrives to the scene? Also how many FF's toal (with the officer ) are there arriving on the scene on each Quint?

Scott Kleinschmidt said:

Nick

We also deploy quints here. We are not total quint, we operate Engine company’s as well. I agree that most times a quint crew can be confused with their role on the fire ground. Most quint crews see themselves as a engine company regardless of how they arrive, therefore our “truck work” has suffered. We have a new COD and he brought on line several 100 foot platforms, these crews are assigned on all fire responses. Their focus well be back to support functions to fire attack “truck work”. When it comes to ventilation we like Capt. Arnold deploy PPV, Natural and Vertical depending on the incident. We are very spread out and encounter all different structure types depending on what part of the city you are in. All of our Engines and Quints carry fans and can easily start PPV if it is a small “room and contents”. If the roof needs opened then one of the Platforms or the Rescue will open up. Our Rescue responds on all commercial, Apartment and 4 plex fires, while the IC dictates what there role will be we usually operate like a truck: vent, search, RIT, and so on. I know a lot of people swear by the quint concept, but like I said above I still like Engine or Truck no questions on what the role is.


Nick Morgan said:

We mostly do horizontal ventilation in St Louis. Good truck work and roof ventilation aren't as common as it used to be, primarily because under the "total quint concept", too many companies assigned to truck work really have an engine company mentality. The specialization of true truck work is all but lost. That's why I want to put more emphasis on truck work in our Academy and dept. training programs, hopefully to help bring this specialty back.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 2, 2008 at 10:34pm

Scott,

I agree that you don't want "trained robots", that is not the point. As a Battalion Chief I seek to build predictability in the operations of my companies. Perhaps its selfish, but I want to know with some degree of certainty, what my companies will do when they arrive. I makes my life infinitely easier if I don’t have to wonder where rigs will spot or re-direct them.

We don’t have strict SOPs that dictate every step of the way. I do; however, insist that the companies perform as if its for real every time. There is no other way to build predictability other than practicing like you want to play. So……every time, every AFA, every smoke in the building, every pot of meat the companies spot the rigs as they should, not so they can get back to the firehouse faster, they are fully suited-up, they enter with tools and cans, they locate and prepare to supply the system, they flush hydrants etc. When they don’t, its my job to remind them so that we continue to work to get it right. Is it difficult and time consuming…you bet, is it a constant, ongoing struggle…you bet. If you have expectations for your members but don’t follow through, you can’t expect much. If their performance is less than you expect, you have to work with them to get there.

Many people don’t want to be “told what to do” or like the loose and easy program of low or no expectations. Sorry, and as one of my mentors told me….If you condone it…you own it. Lay out your expectations and follow through. Expect and demand excellent performance and don’t settle for less.

Sorry for the rant,

Art

Permalink Reply by Brian Arnold on December 3, 2008 at 7:55pm

Jim,
For us the Engine officer has the option of taking a window(s) prior to entry and while operating inside. My personal preference is to see what type of push I have coming out of the fire room and take enough windows to let the thermal layering rise. The problem being, as more windows are taken out the fire gets a chance to breath so the attack line better be getting in quickly to knock it out. With our construction types of SFD this generally buys the engine company enough time to advance the attack and combined with a well trained and aggressive truck crew the top is popped letting most of the heat out. I'm spoiled in the fact that the truck and the engine are generally arriving together or within a min. of each other. Delays in the first due engine or first due truck sometimes changes tactics.

As I said earlier about PPV, it's relatively new and can be a dangerous animal. I see PPV employed incorrectly more times than I see used correctly. If crews aren't absolutely sure that PPV is the way to go, I would just as soon see the fan left on the truck until after knock down. But I suspect the benefits and drawbacks of PPV could probably be another topic all by itself.

Brian



Jim Mason said:

Brian
Thanks for jumping in, you're always welcome here
Does yor engine officer take out the windows from inside or outside? Maybe it could be the truck officer? Just wondering. I like the idea of having the roof opened unless someone tells them to stop. It gets it going when the situation is difficult so when everyone forgets to tells the roof team affirmatively " to open the roof" it is stil l being done. I once worked for an officer that wanted to tell when to open the roof rather than tell us when to not and of course several times he forgot about it when the situation was tense. We were opening it already, of course.
One of the group members is going to start a discussion on Mcmansions in the near future so we can look to coordination of venting and extinguishment much closer then but how do you keep smoke and heat from going upstairs to the bedrooms in these large buildings with the PPV fan ? I've seen the effects of wind driven fires several times and although they weren't controlled I'm still concerned about driving the fire through the building.

Brian Arnold said:

Jim,
Thanks for the invite, sorry I'm so late getting into conversations. It looks like it's been great so far so I'll add my two cents and meet everyone at the pub in Indy to continue.

We are truly in the middle of the country and have seen the influence of both east coast and west coast ventilation practices over the years. I can say that we don't rely on only one technique but utilize horizontal, vertical and PPV.

For us it's all about location, location, location. Size up of the structure, size and location of the fire and life hazard all dictates what type of ventilation we use.

We cover 660 square miles with the majority of homes being single story single platform type dwellings. Yes we have some of the balloon frame, queen ann's and flat roofed residences but 90% of our structure fires occur in a ranch style home with a 8/12 pitch roof or less.

For the majority of homes in my district, the engine officer will take windows while doing his size up providing entry isn't going to be a problem. Truck will go to roof (2 men) and open up over the fire unless called off by attack crew.

But if you go to the district North of mine, it's loading with 5000 square foot McMansions and 10/12 pitched roofs or greater. Even if you got a h*** quickly, you would need a 20' pole to punch out the ceiling. It just doesn't work for them so they rely heavily on horizontal and PPV.

We are working on educating our personnel on what type of ventilation should be used and what effects it will have on the fire, occupants and building rather than just saying one approach is the only way. Every firefighter should know what the benefits of opening up a roof are as well as the draw backs. Horizontal ventilation can help victims and interior crews or it can let the fire breath a little more and take off if attack crews aren't ready. PPV can do the same thing only much faster if used improperly. Unfortunately I have seen first hand PPV or PPA (whatever you want to call it) used textbook properly only to drive out attack crews. PPV is a relatively new animal to the fire service and still has many unknowns and can be very dangerous.

What I do know after 23 years is that when we get the heat and smoke out of the structure it sure makes life easier on me and my fellow hose draggers and especially victims. Communication between companies, training, building knowledge, proper size up and strong leadership all influence how ventilation will be accomplished on each incident.
I could go on, but I don't have a cold frosty adult beverage and they just called Chow!
Stay safe,
Brian

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 3, 2008 at 8:31pm

Here is what we do with appartus positioning and it relates directiy to water supply. The first engine will position past the fire building and the first truck will get the front. They will secure their own positive source. The second engine will BACK down to the first truck and the second truck will position at a corner and wait to see what the second engine does. The second engine will prepare the hydrant on their end of the block. This way if things look to be out of the control of the first engine, the second engine can drop hose from the rear step and pull away to their already checked hydrant. Now the second truck can also pull to the front of the fire building. This is done automatically based on what officer's size up of the situation is when they arrive. It keeps Command from having to dictate all this and concentrate on the fire coordination. All of this keeps the positive source from comming too late. We also like to be redundant in our supply. This is from years of having things go wrong by depending on just one supply from 2 engines. What do you think?
FEMA standards on Incindent Command is kinda funny in some ways. They say the IC develops a strategy and predicts outcomes. I think that is every officer's job , if not every person's job on the fire ground. Leadership is not always from the highest ranking person on the scene. I agree that there should be some at least informal SOP's so there is something to study but they certainly need to be Common Sense SOP'S/SOG's


Scott Kleinschmidt said:

Jim
When i say push SOG's for first arrival company's I mean we have good company officers that know what needs done and think well on the fly. The problem is with the rest of the incident command folks ( I say this in that I believe that there should be a IC and command structure at all alarms) but we have crews that buy way to far into it and can't seem to make a decision with out direction from command. If your second due engine stadges at the plug and waits to be told to lay in there can be a critical delay. If the SOG stated all second due engines will establish water if not done prior to arrival then this is a lose guideline. Now the first due CO has something to stand on if the second due CO had his head up his "well you get the picture" and didn't lay in. This might sound silly, but a lot of metros are dealing with this set of issues. Everyone learned incident command but forgot some common fireground responsabilities. If the SOG states the first due truck Quint or Platform (and their is an engine on scene) is responsable for Vent, Search, Force Entry, laddering ground or aerial, so on and it is up to the truck CO to decide what he does per incident. This keeps the truck from getting caught up in the focus of putting water on the fire. Look at Charleston Sofa Mart Fire, the first due truck ( Platform ) assited in pulling hose and fire attack. They did nothing wrong per their SOP's but was that the best use of the first due truck? I agree you can't and shouldn't replace the ability of guys to make critical decisions and mitigate the incident, but atleast put down what they should focus on.

Jim Mason said:

Oh, it's the chief, that's a funny abriviation. Everything in this business is lettered out. We have general ideas but on what to do but not really SOP/SOG's. So alot of ours is made up from many years of experince also. Another interesting thing is one of our chiefs who had been around a long time says that although depts' with SOP'SOG's are good at what is normal it goes good. But the CFD is better at thinking on our feet when it comes to things need to be made up. I believe there is some truth to that. We are pretty good at fixing the problem when it out of the ordinary. I think I;m going to start a conversation on having SOP's in the modern fire service.

Scott Kleinschmidt said:

Jim,
Sorry, Chief of Department ( COD ). I would have to agree that the Engine/Truck makes us more disciplined. We have tried pushing for pre-arrival assignments for a while now with no luck. The admin and several older company officers do not like the idea of being told what they are responsible for upon arrival. We have tried to explain if the first due engine has some SOG’s on their role (pre-arrival) and so does the truck things would work more smoothly. We have also explained these are just guidelines and the incident will always dictate the tactics. They say they don’t want trained “robots” arriving on scene. So to answer your question the company officer decides what he will do upon arrival. This creates problems because most quint guys in a stressful environment will always fall back to what they know and are comfortable with. This will almost always be engine work. We operate 3 per rig with 14 engines 8 quints 4 Platforms 18 squads 1 rescue 1 hazmat. From talking with other metro departments in the Midwest it seems the quint concept has ran its coarse. Seems like some are trying to figure out how to get back to the Engine/Truck way of doing things.


Jim Mason said:

Scott, What's a COD?
I like the engine /truck idea also but it's the opnly typew of dept's I've worked on. I started on a small paid dept in the birbs of Chgo and now the City. I like the idea most likely that there was alawys enough FF's of on the scene to take of what needed. We had mutual aid in the burb dept. I think the concept of single role units makes us diciplined in the functions and makes us coordinate the attack with the other companies on the scene. What do you think, does it?
How does your dept determine what a unit will work as when it arrives to the scene? Also how many FF's toal (with the officer ) are there arriving on the scene on each Quint?

Scott Kleinschmidt said:

Nick

We also deploy quints here. We are not total quint, we operate Engine company’s as well. I agree that most times a quint crew can be confused with their role on the fire ground. Most quint crews see themselves as a engine company regardless of how they arrive, therefore our “truck work” has suffered. We have a new COD and he brought on line several 100 foot platforms, these crews are assigned on all fire responses. Their focus well be back to support functions to fire attack “truck work”. When it comes to ventilation we like Capt. Arnold deploy PPV, Natural and Vertical depending on the incident. We are very spread out and encounter all different structure types depending on what part of the city you are in. All of our Engines and Quints carry fans and can easily start PPV if it is a small “room and contents”. If the roof needs opened then one of the Platforms or the Rescue will open up. Our Rescue responds on all commercial, Apartment and 4 plex fires, while the IC dictates what there role will be we usually operate like a truck: vent, search, RIT, and so on. I know a lot of people swear by the quint concept, but like I said above I still like Engine or Truck no questions on what the role is.


Nick Morgan said:

We mostly do horizontal ventilation in St Louis. Good truck work and roof ventilation aren't as common as it used to be, primarily because under the "total quint concept", too many companies assigned to truck work really have an engine company mentality. The specialization of true truck work is all but lost. That's why I want to put more emphasis on truck work in our Academy and dept. training programs, hopefully to help bring this specialty back.

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