"You take those babies out..." Is this Guy Serious?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ray on October 26, 2008 at 4:32pm

I also read that with a tilted head. High Rise ventilation as in window removal or horizontal ventilation must be sampled first.. Our policy is for a firefighter above to replicate the opening on the fire floor on the floor above and then test for wind effect. Even with this question answered, caution is the watch word. I would delay ventilation for a typical room fire until the line has knocked it down. I have been in aprtments where the window in the fire room held. What it held back was a steady wind that would have dramatically changed the type of fire we had.

Permalink Reply by Anthony Avillo on October 27, 2008 at 7:27pm

it is all about the wind direction
like ray said, u must duplicate the condiitons on the floor below and then make a decision
this includes holding opening the stairwell door and seeing the effect
many times, i have herard to just open the window and the aprt door. This will not give about as true a reading as u will get
we have had some nightmare high rise fires due to wind conditions on the cliffs facing manhattan and steep hills facing the meadowlands
if the wind is not favorable, keep the windows intact and use the right stream and volume (solid bore and alot of h20)
if they break out, u may have to utilize alternative strategies, one of which is thermal elimination, certainly a better alternative to burnng firefighters
no one is tougher than a fire, esp. a wind blown one -- be careful

Permalink Reply by Russ Chapman on October 27, 2008 at 9:25pm

Has he heard of an extreme wind driven fire? We all know this is due to ventilation. The windows should not be taken without consulting the Engine Officer or the Battalion on the floor.

Permalink Reply by John Salka on November 21, 2008 at 7:40pm

I agree with Ray and Tony and encourage caution when considering ventilation at a high rise fire. There are several different types of buildings that are considered HR, one being the HR multiple dwelling or apartment building and the other is the officer building. The windows in the office building are usually much more difficult to break or ventilate and the windows in residential HR buildings are generally standard thermal pane glass that will vent with little effort. However, as already stated, you will probably have your hands full with a one or two room HR fire and horizontal ventilation should be way down on your list of stuff to do. Not only will this ventilation possibly allow a wind to accelerate and push fire toward the advancing engine crew, but the glass falling from an upper floor will almost certainly cause damage to hoselines equipment and even firefighters in the street. If a wind is blowing, glass can travel more than a block away from the involved building before it hits the street.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 29, 2008 at 12:27pm

These are all excellent posts. Although, I believe that the same information and caution applies to low rise or even one and two story buildings if the right (wrong) wind conditions exist.

I believe that the "Wind driven effect" and the dangers also apply to these lesser considered structures and to departments that do not protect high-rise buildings. I think if we all examine past fires with this "new" information in mind, we can identify many "smaller" building fires that fit the criteria. One that immediately comes to mind for me was a three story garden apartment with fire on the first. As the still engine was stretching down the hall, the occupant had returned to rescue his dog. The patio door had failed just prior to his opening the door. When he did, he was killed in place and the engine crew was luck they were close to the enclosed stairway. The hallway immediately became untennable and the crew survived because they were able to quickly retreat and the nozzleman kept working as they backed into the satirwell. The winds were in the 25-30 mph range directly into the A side of the building.

What are your thoughts?

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 29, 2008 at 1:28pm

Gents,

A few more thoughts.... We all need to take a good, hard look at the information being developed during the ongoing research with NIST, FDNY, Chicago FD and others as it continues to unfold. I think we will all need to re-examine our SOPs and revise our operations to address the wind driven phenomenon. I sense that many small and medium size departments consider the whole wind driven issue a high-rise problem and therefore, a big city fire department issue.

Again, I am interested in your thoughts.

Permalink Reply by Joe Pantaleo on May 28, 2009 at 1:26pm

I'm sure most of you brothers have already seen this one. Any thoughts on this? I imagine this would have to be an EXTREMELY coordinated operation. Copy and Paste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUUJ2ktNGmk