Lack of Leadership ?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Shawn Tibbitts on January 17, 2010 at 6:22pm

Some thing that might help you is get the board of directors to put in your by-laws that all officers appointed must complete x amount of officer training within the first year of appointment or their title will be striped. I have seen in some local depts in my area the promotion of chief officers capts and lieutenants that cant even pump a truck or know the first thing about it. In my opinion I feel anyone in a leadership role should be fully educated in the roll in which he is holding otherwise whats the point of his title if he isnt a go to guy at a scene. The lack of training for the leadership is a huge red flag to me. Is your chief appointed or elected? if hes elected do a grass roots campaign to have him removed at the next election HOWEVER who will replace him? Do you have any one experienced their to do the job? Depts are defined by the morale of the membership, experience, training and their leadership, each of these need to be examined and worked on for your dept to not only function properly but to assure every one will stay safe. In this day and age their is no excuse for any of us not too take advantage of classes that are available. If you have guys on your roster that refuse to take classes other than the bare minimum or refuse to even do that then remove them they are only a liability, and do not belong their in the first place. Hope this helped, try to stay positive and work on a little at a time you cant change a dept over night.

Permalink Reply by Todd "Walt" Walton on January 18, 2010 at 10:32am

Couple thoughts here. First, I've noticed a lot of people like to point out what is wrong but not how to change it. Have you and others developed a way to bring the change about?
Second, can you bring the people that are in the positions up to speed regarding training. I agree with Shawn about by laws and some of his views. If you can't make a change that way then start trying to bring them up to speed with training.

Training is not the answer for everything but it will effect a lot of change. I know of a department with a Chief that discouraged training and preferred "We've always done it that way". He had a lot of old timers that would side with him. At that time the department (primarily the Chief) would call for mutual aid before they ever reached the station on incidents they should have been able to handle themselves. Some of the members started training, getting their FF1 certification, etc. As a direct result that department has become a very respectable department and is operating at a level similar to surrounding departments.
What brought this change? Training, determination and time. It wasn't solved over night but positive change did occur. The tide shifted and the Chief saw that he had members that knew more than him training wise and he stepped down.
Just food for thought.

Permalink Reply by Keith Whitmore on January 18, 2010 at 12:25pm

Thanks guys for the input our chief has all the training that is req. by the state, and then just a little but bare min. the problem is that the respect that his position demands is not there no one in the department has any respect for his position as chief. He just makes bad decisions in leadership ,and on the fire ground, It does not help that he has had 2 brain surg. open hart surg. cant see very well but I’m not saying bump him out on the street or even make him an enemy I’m trying to find a resolution . We to have a lot of older members that don’t like to train and just a few that are active in our training. I personally have decided to go get my ff1 for this reason to help the dept. get back on the right path maybe it seemed that I was pointing fingers at one but I was trying not to.I’m just trying to find a way that will open his eyes and do better or realize it is time to step down and let someone else take over

Permalink Reply by Ron Becknell on January 18, 2010 at 8:10pm

You can put in the By-Laws specific items about Officer training. But just because someone completes a class does not make them a good leader. In my 18 years on a volunteer fire department I have seen good and bad officers, fortunately we have always had a good Chief; all of our officers are elected. I have also found that there are some people you work with and some you work around. It sound as though you have some passion for the department, job so I suggest you begin trying to lead from your current position. Surely there is someone looking up to you, you need to mentor them and help them to progress into the kind of members the department needs. If necessary befriend the officers you have and try to challenge them to take some leadership classes with you. Talk to some people about leading from the Bottom - UP it is not easy or quick but it can be done. Don't give up, Rome was not built in a day.

Permalink Reply by Gary A. Janka on January 19, 2010 at 11:43am

I agree to the post's below, many times however not all the time it's the buddies and/or click system that makes up some of the officer corps of our volunteer fire departments. I know this because I have seen it personnaly. What I don't understand is why someone would what to become a fire officer without the proper training and experiance involved here. The liabilities that are out there and the trust one needs is to great for us to not voice our concern. Sometimes you just have to stand up and show these folks the requirments in their states, and look at the standards like NFPA 1021 and others point these out to these officers, let them know they need to get with the program or not take on the responsibilities as a fire officer. One last thing on this, if an incident happens with unqualified officers and god forbid someone is injuried or worse, guess who will get caught up in the mix the TRAINING OFFICER.

Permalink Reply by Keith Whitmore on January 19, 2010 at 1:43pm

thank you all this isvery good info that i have been surching for .regarding the NFPA we do not have andy of the manuals and cant afford to purces any of them or thay just refuse to and i cant find any of them online to downlode i have fount a place to view them but I can not save or print them and the other department will not let you out of sight with them and it would cost a fortune to make copies and I don`t think that is legall ani personily cant afford them

Permalink Reply by Gary A. Janka on January 19, 2010 at 5:17pm

Hi Keith, Give me what standards you are looking at and mite need, I my have some pdf copies I could send. I can't understand why standards either state or NFPA are not in your sog's or sop's as this is a fundamental foundation that most departments should have or should be getting pretty darn quick.

Keith Whitmore said:

thank you all this isvery good info that i have been surching for .regarding the NFPA we do not have andy of the manuals and cant afford to purces any of them or thay just refuse to and i cant find any of them online to downlode i have fount a place to view them but I can not save or print them and the other department will not let you out of sight with them and it would cost a fortune to make copies and I don`t think that is legall ani personily cant afford them

Permalink Reply by Keith Whitmore on January 19, 2010 at 8:19pm

gary
thats just it we don`t have any sop`s or sog`s we are just know geting a set of bylaws after 20+ yrs of operating i just talked them into geting a set dron up by or county atturny as far as nfpa im not 100 percent what i need to be looking for that is my bigest problem i don`t have any exp. in that fild at all this dept has mad me relize really fast wheere i need more training if you have a pdf copy of any thing ill take it somthing is better than nothing at all just let me know what i need to do

thank you

Gary A. Janka said:

Hi Keith, Give me what standards you are looking at and mite need, I my have some pdf copies I could send. I can't understand why standards either state or NFPA are not in your sog's or sop's as this is a fundamental foundation that most departments should have or should be getting pretty darn quick.

Keith Whitmore said:

thank you all this isvery good info that i have been surching for .regarding the NFPA we do not have andy of the manuals and cant afford to purces any of them or thay just refuse to and i cant find any of them online to downlode i have fount a place to view them but I can not save or print them and the other department will not let you out of sight with them and it would cost a fortune to make copies and I don`t think that is legall ani personily cant afford them

Permalink Reply by Gary A. Janka on January 21, 2010 at 8:15pm

Keith send me an e-mail to garyjanka@hotmail.com and I will send back what I have on pdf.

Keith Whitmore said:

gary
thats just it we don`t have any sop`s or sog`s we are just know geting a set of bylaws after 20+ yrs of operating i just talked them into geting a set dron up by or county atturny as far as nfpa im not 100 percent what i need to be looking for that is my bigest problem i don`t have any exp. in that fild at all this dept has mad me relize really fast wheere i need more training if you have a pdf copy of any thing ill take it somthing is better than nothing at all just let me know what i need to do

thank you

Gary A. Janka said:

Hi Keith, Give me what standards you are looking at and mite need, I my have some pdf copies I could send. I can't understand why standards either state or NFPA are not in your sog's or sop's as this is a fundamental foundation that most departments should have or should be getting pretty darn quick.

Keith Whitmore said:

thank you all this isvery good info that i have been surching for .regarding the NFPA we do not have andy of the manuals and cant afford to purces any of them or thay just refuse to and i cant find any of them online to downlode i have fount a place to view them but I can not save or print them and the other department will not let you out of sight with them and it would cost a fortune to make copies and I don`t think that is legall ani personily cant afford them

Permalink Reply by Ron Becknell on January 24, 2010 at 10:16pm

I suggest finding that core, the 5-10 people that get most of the work done around the station and on scenes. Every department has them. Seek out these guys and talk to them about setting up some small trainings in your own, not even on meeting nights do it separately so there is less friction from the others. Slowly more will want to join in especially if you can come up with some good trainings. It is a shame to say but if you cannot get any help from the Chief or Directors then you need to focus on the members, I am sure that some want the same things you do. It may be an agonizingly slow process but eventually things will get better. Good Luck.

Permalink Reply by Ron Becknell on January 25, 2010 at 5:49pm

It would not be easy but perhaps if the right person or people talk to the Chief and ask for the Chief to begin mentoring them to take his place in the event he can no longer perform his duties. I think that some people become concerned that they will not be remembered if they leave the department, or they have been Chief so long that they really don't know how to do anything else and may be afraid to step down.

Keith Whitmore said:

Thanks guys for the input our chief has all the training that is req. by the state, and then just a little but bare min. the problem is that the respect that his position demands is not there no one in the department has any respect for his position as chief. He just makes bad decisions in leadership ,and on the fire ground, It does not help that he has had 2 brain surg. open hart surg. cant see very well but I’m not saying bump him out on the street or even make him an enemy I’m trying to find a resolution . We to have a lot of older members that don’t like to train and just a few that are active in our training. I personally have decided to go get my ff1 for this reason to help the dept. get back on the right path maybe it seemed that I was pointing fingers at one but I was trying not to.I’m just trying to find a way that will open his eyes and do better or realize it is time to step down and let someone else take over

Permalink Reply by Keith Whitmore on January 25, 2010 at 9:40pm

thank you all again for the input

I had a talk today with our chief and the president of the board and it went very well I recommended a training committee of 3 people, doing a survey at our next meeting asking the membership to right out where they would like to see our dept in 5 years, and where would you like to see it in the next 2 years, and how do you think we can do this, also but not least what is you complaints with the dept and how can we as a membership make changes to correct it, of course I recommended we did not ask for any name on this so they can be no finger pointing.

We are having a fund raiser where people come in to our dept. and have there pic taken and when they do hand them a survey a bought what they think of how the dept is doing in the eyes of the community and so on they all agreed to do it at our next meeting