Which nozzle for fashover?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ray McCormack on February 26, 2009 at 8:30pm

One that works and has plenty of water behind it.
Welcome Scott

Permalink Reply by Scott Zogg on February 26, 2009 at 8:46pm

I've recently heard (and read) that the "left for life" fog nozzle approach is false security and actually draws the fire on you. I'm wondering how this jives with the practical experience of this group.
Thanks for the welcome.

Ray McCormack said:

One that works and has plenty of water behind it.
Welcome Scott

Permalink Reply by Brandon Krause on February 27, 2009 at 7:12am

We use the combi-pok smoothbore nozzles, they have a sliding collar the when pulled back creates an impenging stream full fog pattern. This is set up as a protection system and with it not being at typical type fog it doesnt seem to move as much air. Might cut down on pulling the fire in? One question I ask to Scott is do you wear the HFD Reed hood?


http://www.edarley.com/finditem/20923

Permalink Reply by Scott Zogg on February 27, 2009 at 7:31am

Yes I wear the Reed hood (acutally, it's issued and required in HFD).

Brandon Krause said:

We use the combi-pok smoothbore nozzles, they have a sliding collar the when pulled back creates an impenging stream full fog pattern. This is set up as a protection system and with it not being at typical type fog it doesnt seem to move as much air. Might cut down on pulling the fire in? One question I ask to Scott is do you wear the HFD Reed hood?


http://www.edarley.com/finditem/20923

Permalink Reply by Bob Shovald on February 27, 2009 at 11:13am

My personnal choice would be a 15/16" SS. Less chance of bringing the heat down on yourself and less chance of bringing in more O2 from behind you as a fog nozzle will do. ( it may be a the additional O2 the fire needs to flashover). My thought is SS inside and defensive / Combination nozzle outside (car fires, dumpsters, Brush fires, foam etc.). They are both great tools.
Bob

Permalink Reply by Brian Arnold on February 27, 2009 at 9:12pm

Like Ray, I prefer one that has plenty of water. A smoothbore is my preference but a SS will work in a pinch. As Scott spoke about in the earlier post, many people are taught "left for life and right for reach" but experience behind the nozzle will quickly show you that you can't spend much time under the protection of a full fog pattern before you begin to get cooked like a lobster. The more water coming out of the nozzle the better, it gives you better protection and may keep you from getting into a flashover situation in the first place. Look for an older NIOSH fatality report (sorry can't remember the exact year) of when a couple of well intentioned brothers tried to keep the fire off a brother that had fallen thru the floor with a wide fog pattern. They were able to get him out with his gear intact but he still died due to being cooked from the inside out. Gross thermal insult to his internal organs. I'm in no way faulting the efforts of those brothers, only pointing out that the steam created by the wide fog did exactly what we expect it to do.

Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on February 27, 2009 at 11:07pm

My personal preference is a smooth bore nozzle and preferably a larger line(2 to 2.5"), but realistically the best way to deal with a flashover or near flashover is to read the factors that will contribute to flashover before it actually occurs. This can be done with proper and ongoing size up by exterior and interior teams, proper hoseline selection and advancement, proper cooridinated ventilation, and aggressive attack. BRIAN ARNOLD brings up an excellent point that has been proven time and time again about smoothbore vs. fog nozzles. Even a straight stream on a fog nozzle still moves alot of air which will lead to steam burns. Smoothbore nozzles move high GPM's with only minimal increase in the possibility of steam burns. Larger Smoothbores require more manpower and with so many Companies running below recommended standards, we have to call multiple alarms to safely do what 1 alarm could do in the past effectively.

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on February 28, 2009 at 6:40pm

We have on rigs a Fog nozzle, however Im in the middle of trying to get things changed to use a smoothbore. A battle ahead.
1st every firefighter should know building construction and fire behaviour like the back of their hand. We all know that things on the fire ground can go FUBAR without warning. However as a firefigher I expect that the Outside Vent crew will do everything in their power to help relieve the smoke and gases. And I on the interior will do my best to get to the seed of the fire and knock it down.(Nozzlemens job). I believe from all the readings and studies and some personal training that a smoothbore would be best for flashover. Why it will penetrate to the seed and distrupt the fire. FLASHOVER- is when every thing in the room reaches its flashpoint. That said what would a fog do?
Ray has a video on one of the topics here check it out.

Second I'd like to see the facts on LODD for interior fire deaths and see what nozzles where in place when the firefighters were overcome by FIRE. Not smoke or collapse but by fire.
Im not an expert but Im also not a fool.

Permalink Reply by Jim Miller on March 3, 2009 at 8:14pm

A similar discussion in the past few days "opening the nozzle on smoke". A nozzle that produces a straight or solid stream with large gpm (150gpm minimum). You want the water to work for you, by that I mean cooling the atmosphere. Whether it is about to flash or has flashed you need water in the upper atmosphere and hopefully on the seat if it has not been found. The stream should be able to penetrate and get to where you need it to go. A fog in this environment will vaporize before it gets to where it needs to work and will end up causing you to be driven out of the area. I have heard some say they would go to full fog and hide behind the pattern. This is not a LP burn outside on the training ground, you are in a compartment (this is where flashover occurs) and the expanding steam has no where to go. You will not hide behind that long!!! Open the nozzle, FLOW THE LINE, and aggressively work the nozzle into the upper atmosphere to absorb the heat and hopefully get water on the seat. If the conditions don't improve allowing you to continue the push then you should be trained to back the line out while flowing water. Just remember, flashover is a heat driven event, it takes water to COOL!!

Permalink Reply by Ray McCormack on March 4, 2009 at 8:27am

Jim - Well said. I wonder if guys are mixing classes they have taken. I am seeing a lot of tactics mixed with other tactics and the problem is when added together the answer is wrong. I have mentioned this before a lot of what is taught at fire academies is outdated and incorrect. This is in addition to guys trying to make an name for themselves by being on the "cutting edge" and having no clue.

Permalink Reply by Brandon Krause on March 4, 2009 at 7:02pm

I think Lloyd Layman was a smart guy, but unfortunatly we have the technology and know how now that we can see maybe the fog idea and the steam approach isnt the best for an aggressive interior attack.

Permalink Reply by Larry Glover on March 8, 2009 at 8:18pm

Scott: I've had the privilage to go through our flashover simulator and have used different nozzles. I prefer the SB but on the companies I ride, we have Combination nozzles. I keep mine on straight stream. They taught us the "penciling technique" to cool the upper atmosphere. I'd highly recommend going through a flashover class if there is one taught in your area. I went through the one at Gaston College RESTC in Dallas North Carolina.

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