Initial Response

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jay Michael on March 12, 2008 at 2:04pm

We do about the same thing. Engines have 3, Officer and 2 Truck has 4, Officer and 3
Residential
1st. Attack
2nd. Water then RIT
3rd. Backup
4th. Secondary Water, Await assignment
Truck force entry, search, secondary egress.
Medic assist truck or special asssignment.
Battlion Chief and safety officer riding together.
I am not sure I agree, I do it, but I don't have to agree with it.
I do agree these aforementioned things need to be accomplished at most residential fires. I feel we would be more efficient if the first in officer would do his size up then determine if his two hands will make a difference in the outcome. If his two hands will make the problem go away, he needs to pass command. If his two hands will not make the problem go away immediately, he needs to take command. Assign the needed tactics to complete his strategy to the incomming units. That way all will be working toward one common goal or strategy if you will. In the book The Art of War, Sun Tzu makes a comment something to the effect ,Strategy without tactis is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. It seems to me our method can lead to a lack of command and freelancing.
Our city is about 25 square miles and we have 7 engines 1 aerial and 3 ALS ambulances and one BC safety officer. What we do works for us, the command officers are usually there about the time or just before the second engine. I just think we would be more efficient and effective without the pre-assignments. Commercial fires are handled by havine the incomming units stage while the territory engine completes the size up, again the command vehicle is there just after the first engine. I worry the problem will show up when the command vehicle doesn't show up as another fire or, god forbid, a traffic accident, or a multitude of other reasons.
Looking at the NIOSH reports, I believe "breakdown of command" is listed on most of them. I am not selling his book but, "Incident Command for the Street Smart FIre Officer" by John "Skip" Coleman has really got me sold and I have been working that basic style, within the parameters I have been given, for the last 6-7 years. It is nothing more than give the incident what it needs, not what you want it to have, it hasn't read your pre-assignments. We need to assign tasks to complete the tactics to support the strategy of the commander in order to make the building behave.

Permalink Reply by Jay Michael on March 13, 2008 at 5:22pm

Dave
I have no problem with assigned tasks for riding positions, outside vent, forcable entry, can man. What I am talking about is someone needs to be in command. The first in engine, if his two hands will immedately help the situation, he needs to help the situation. A brief size-up passing command to the next in unit briefly outlining what he is doing so the next in unit can follow along with the strategy in place. I really don't want alot. all I ask of my incomming officers for the sizeup is what they have, what they are doing about it and what they need help with. This way a strategy is in place to allow the crews to segue (your term qv. follow along). They will be able to determine , for example, are we venting for life or fire? I assign crews to accomplish tasks that need to be done, when they need to be done (that is a drastic over simplification). We really arn't very far apart in our thinking. The more a firefighter knows what is expected the better all will be. At the risk of being redundent "command" is the preson to let them know what to expect. With the term command I do not mean command officers but whom ever has command at that moment. The person giving the orders can not be inside on a hand line. Fires are a dynamic thing, conditions change, its very hard to notice the changing conditions on the inside. Pre-assignments, in my opinion, set firefighters on task sometimes so much so that changing conditions are not noticed. Remember the conditions I believe it is necessary to pass command are when the officers two hands will help the incident. Quick knockdown fire goes out, generally the problem gets better. The bigger the incident the more to do. The quicker an organized attack is in place, the less chance command gets overwhelmed.
For those of you reading this, it is really fun to have a healthy discussion. I don't wish to convert anyone, what I do works where I am. I want the fires to go out and all to go home. I can remember the time where the incident commander came into the building just to ask who was in there. We have come along way.
Jay

Permalink Reply by Scott Thompson on March 13, 2008 at 8:17pm

Jay:

Great feedback! You are correct, we need to do what works best for us. I agree on one hand that if’, to quote Chief Brunaccini, “If your involvement makes the difference in saving the kid or the building”….well you need to make a decision, However, if doing so compromises firefighter safety because a strong IC has not been established…….

Great discussion

Permalink Reply by Jay Wieners on March 13, 2008 at 9:13pm

I, too think that having predetermined assignments is an excellent way of doing business. Tasks such as establishing water supply, entry, ventilation, attack, search, R.I.T., and overhaul need to be completed for most working structure fires. What makes each job different is where, how, and in what order they are carried out. This is where the Incident Commander is crucial.
Predetermined assignments make it easier for responding personnel to have a good idea of what they will be doing upon arrival, which allows them to prepare themselves both mentally and with the right tools. It also makes the I.C.'s job easier when deciding who will do what based on knowing who is prepared and expecting to do what. Simply put, predetermined assignments give us a boiler plate incident action plan ahead of time, that everyone can know, and that the Incident Commander can tweek as needed. It's easier for the I.C. to issue on or two orders that deviate from the plan as opposed to giving all the orders necessary to fight a fire.
Tasks assigned to riding positions on the apparatus further simplify things, at least in my experience. Working in a volunteer department, we don't know exactly how many firefighters we will get on the initial response. With assigned riding positions, we can put firefighters in the seats based on the likely priorities of a working fire. This also helps with accountability in the long run because you can know who is in the building, and where, based on where they were sitting in the apparatus.
Here's how we do it:

First Engine- Establish water supply when working structure fire is confirmed prior to arrival.
Driver takes the accountability board (members tag in while responding) and operates pump.
Nozzle man, officer, and back up man (equipped also with irons since the truck usually won't be there yet)
stretch the line to the point of entry and force entry, if needed. Entry won't be made unless at least two
firefighters are standing by outside. Once entry is made, they will advance on the fire, searching along
the way, knock down the fire, and search the fire room.
Manpower permitting, a second team on the engine will consist of the hydrant man, a "hook man," and
what we call the "driver's assistant" will be responsible for the hydrant connection (hydrant man),
connecting to the pump intake (driver's assistant), and initial outside ventilation (hook man) before
stretching a back up line.

First Truck- Position for maximum use of aerial ladder, when possible.
Driver takes accountability board, operates aerial ladder, and may assist with throwing ground ladders.
Officer, Irons Man, and Can Man force entry, if needed, and conduct a primary search of the fire floor.
Manpower permitting, a second team (outside vent team) complete outside ventilation, force additional
points of entry/egress, throw ground ladders, and will conduct a primary search of the floor above
(using V.E.S. when appropriate). In one story structures, this team will be responsible for opening the
roof, when needed.

Second Engine- Establish a water supply, if not done by the first engine (otherwise, establish a secondary water source)
Driver takes accountability board and operates pump.
Stretches an additional line as needed. If a back up line is already in place, the first back up line may
enter to back up the first line, protect a stairway, or go to the floor above as needed. In this case, the
third line will usually be a 2 1/2" in case things go south (the initial back up team from the first engine
is used, when possible, to comply with the 2 in/ 2 out rule). In this case, the third line would remain
outside in a stand-by position.

The squad (manpower/equipment wagon) is fourth due, and it's crew will be used for whatever tasks still need to be accomplished or to relieve other personnel.

Upon confirmation of a working structure fire, a F.A.S.T. team is requested from a neighboring department.

Stay safe,

Jay

Permalink Reply by Drew Smith on March 15, 2008 at 12:21am

We run three engines, a truck and an ALS ambulance plus chief(s) for 14-16 members

First engine to declare working fire to dispatch, stretch line to fire and extinguish or confine then start search of fire area
Second engine to support first engine (if E1 didn't tag hydant or FDC then E2 does it)
Third engine is back up line
Truck is to position and set up even if ladder will not be raised initially. If truck is second company on scene the go interior to BU E1 and E2 will take their place. If truck is third company on scene they vent from outside.
ALS ambulance is part of hose team
We use an initial RIT of two members from these companies to cover RIT until the working fire alarm RIT arrives. This mode lasts 5-10 minutes.

Upon declaration of working fire, alarm sends us 4th engine, 2nd truck, 2nd ALS amb and 2 chiefs-all mutual aid through our regional dispatch center-adding 10 more personnel.
Formal RIT comes from these companies. If any of these companies are sent to work in the offensive mode we sound a second alarm bringing 3 more engines, a truck, and ALS amb and chiefs.

While it is a great plan, the infrequency of working fires (we have only 6-8 of our own fires that require this) does not allow for the deployment of the plan and therefore many members put a great effort but one that is not the plan and that a chief needs to modify to meet the plan.

On most working fires (whihc is good for the occupants and for FF safety) the first engine gets a line on the fire and solves the problem before the balance of the entire first alarm arrives resulting is a lack of urgency when those units do arrive.

Permalink Reply by Scott Thompson on April 3, 2008 at 8:23am

Brent:

Great response. You made the point twice of saying you do not announce Command over the radio. I was just curious why........

Permalink Reply by Scott Thompson on April 3, 2008 at 1:14pm

Thanks for the reply. I hope you understand I asked tottally out of curiosity. Be safe.

Permalink Reply by Bill Sullivan on April 10, 2008 at 3:31pm

As former Heavy Weight Champ of the World Mike Tyson once said "Every fighter has a plan, until they get punched in the face." You have to have a plan and in my department we have one. It is in many ways similar to those mentioned here. We get 3 engines, 1 truck, rescue co., and the deputy chief with aide on a first alarm (a struck box). By SOP it should work something like this:
- 1st due engine attacks the fire
- 2nd due engine gets the 1st due engine its water supply and runs a second line to back-up the first.
- 3rd due engine should approach the scene from an opposite direction of the first and second due and establish its own water supply. If it appears as though the 1st two engines are going to be successful they will stand by as the RIC.
- 1st due truck is primarily the inside truck: forced entry, search and rescue and horizontal vent for fires below the top floor.
- rescue co. makes sure the first line is moving and assists that company in the event of a problem and conducts search of immediate fire area.
All of these tasks are the ideal situation. Often times the situation dictates that some changes are necessary.

Now the "punches" may start flying. severe life hazard, traffic, cars parked on both sides of narrow streets or blocked streets, blocked or dead hydrants, fires on dead end streets, fire involving buildings with difficult access, exposure problems, apparatus break downs, burst lines of hose, trees, poles, electrical wires and everything else that can challenge the "Plan". However, having a plan gives you something to build from and fall back on. Murphy's Law is enacted at nearly every fire and your members have to have the training to be able to adapt to rapidly changing and/or deteriorating conditions and make the plan fit. Or the I.C. had better be able to develop a plan, on the fly, that will succeed. In my opinion if, under "normal" circumstances you, as the I.C., find yourself giving orders to first due companies regarding basic 1st due operations... The problem may actually lay with you having not trained those working with you to be able to be successful on the fire ground within the all important first few minutes. As goes the first few minutes, so goes the next couple of hours.
As important as fire attack, search and rescue, continuous water supply and ventilation so too is the rapid initiation and establishment of the incident command system. In my department the first due engine officer doesn't formally assume command because the deputy chief is typically just a minute or so behind him or her. However, that officer is relied upon to give as good an initial report as possible including what actions his or her company is taking. I hope this helpful to the discussion.

Permalink Reply by Brandon Wyant on May 14, 2008 at 10:50am

We run things a little different than most out first due engine has 6 firefighters including an officer and engineer the first two firefighters and officer get the inital attack handline the other two firefighters do forcible entry and search the truck does ventilation and the second in engine lays the backup line and sets up RIT and are department is somewhat small so we usually have the chief there as IC along with our safey officer if we assign an additional engine it goes to rit and the second engine takes the backup line