What is your departments' primary ventilation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Scott Kleinschmidt on November 6, 2008 at 11:24pm

Yes staffing is key, but even with our bare bones staffing we still can acomplish what needs done. We just have to prioritize the fire ground needs. Most of our BC's are good at calling for additinal resources fast. In most areas of the city we can get another Engine/Quint and Truck pretty quick. Jim you are correct outside of "room and contents" the "fan" can cause you problems. We are pretty good at "using" the fan after the knock down to remove excess smoke in larger structures. I am a believer in start the vent "windows" and after it starts moving like it wants too then use the fan to "help" it. I still am not real sure about starting the fan right away and using it to "push" the smoke and heat out ahead of the engine crew(Postive Pressure Attack). The problem I see is to many "issue" that need addressed prior to said tactic. We have had crews deploy this tactic and they have been very succesful, but they "read" the conditions and use sound judgement. If the conditions are not right they don't do it. I know they say it is another "tool" for venting along with horizontal and/or taking the roof. What are your thoughts?

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 7, 2008 at 12:00am

I've seen both sides of PPV; I've watched the fan do a great job in aiding the Brothers and I have seen the fan "blow up" the fire. It really is situational dependent as well as structure dependent. What I mean by that is some occupancies such as hotels, hospitals, nursing homes and some commercial tend to respond better to PPV due to the fact that they are built with more compartmentalization and are usually more air tight then the average residential occupancy.
When it comes to code enforcement the FD here has so little influence in the private residence vs everything else... We seem to have a better handle of control in the commercial and thus can dictate circumstances that are more conducive to PPV in commercial and specifically institutional settings such as hotels, nursing homes...

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 7, 2008 at 1:15pm

I understand what you are saying on the institutions. that's what I would be more familiar with. Mike, Could you take a look at the reply to Scott K please? Maybe we could get some ideas from you and everyone else on the ideas of size up of the use of PPV fans in PD's. I mean specifc size up assessment on when to use the fan or not.
Then we can compare the residence ideas to the commercial application
I'm going to put out an announcement to the group on the turn of the disscusion

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 7, 2008 at 1:41pm

Scott
I'm just not challenging you on the use of the PPV fan when I say this but just trying to learn. What are the size up points on the use or not on a un-inspected residence (primarily private dwellings (PD) - single family and 2 unit aprtment buildings)

To keep it comparing apples to apples let's use these points as the discussion although they may not all apply each time.

Construction of the buidling
Occupancy (single families and 2 unit aprtments buildings. - PD)
Location of the Fire (including reading of smoke and fire)
Life hazard (including civilian and FF's )

Specifically - When do you use it and when do you not use it?

Permalink Reply by Joe Heim on November 7, 2008 at 6:31pm

Our department does not utilize PPV. The reason being is the fact that we do not get enough structure fires to become profficient at the use. Also we feel that we can accomplish the same tasks with coordinating with the interior to vent the structure and relieve the heat and smoke.

Permalink Reply by Mike Cervik on November 8, 2008 at 10:14am

Where I work we staff 3 engines(usually with 4 FF's) and 2 ALS Ambulances and a BC. We have a 100' Tower Ladder which we only take out if the call meets certain criteria( multi story, etc.) When we show up to a typical residential fire, we have roughly 14-15 FF's on scene. Our primary means of ventilation is PPV. Very rarily do we do vertical ventilation. (Which I don't really agree with) We don't see very much fire here, so with our manpower situation we typically are just grabbing the fan.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 8, 2008 at 1:37pm

Hi Jim, In Albuquerque we don not have a specific sop on using or not using the PPV on a residential occupancy based on the size of the occupancy.
Generally, in a PD it comes down to standard ventilation tactics not working fast enough and someone asking for the fan to be set up.
PPV used properly in any setting is dependent on how much control firefighters have over the structure and whether or not they can adequately control the movement of air.
As to setting up the fan ahead of personnel moving in... I understand the thought process but in a PD situation I'm not a big "fan". We tend to not have as much "control" over the building as in a commercial or specifically an institutional.
We typically use the PPV in a residential setting AFTER we have knocked down the fire and have established control over the situation.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 10, 2008 at 7:49pm

Wow Ian, Your First truck driver spots the truck (I'm assuming ) at the front the of the buiding then does Outside (horizontal ) venting.
How do you guys coordinate the horizontal venting either way - commuications engine to OV or OV to engine?
FF's certianly need to clean out the entire window, don;t they? Does the OV give any radio report / size up to the IC from the rear or sides prior or during his trip around the building
Does your dept use PPV fans any where?
And if they are used on PD"s how does it affect suriviablilty of victims inside?

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 10, 2008 at 7:54pm

Mike
How do you guys deterime if the fan should be used or does it always get used?
The reason I ask is the discussion was talking about if the sitution is a room and contents fire the fan works out well but if the fire has gotten into the walls it might be spread by the fan. What is your ideas on this point and how do you guys determine this with your size up if there is a difference in the 2 applications?

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 10, 2008 at 8:02pm

Mike and everyone else
How does the fan use affect the survivability of victms in a PD?

Permalink Reply by Mike Cervik on November 11, 2008 at 7:07pm

I would say 9 out of 10 times the fan is used. It is also probably getting used when it shouldn't. That comes down to training or lack thereof. Many of our officers feel that with the manpower that we have, that PPV works out best. Honestly, I also don't know if some of them really know when not to use it. I would say of the few fires that I've been on, they have been room and content fires that the fan was set up and everything went smoothly. Many times the fan is set up after knock down to clean out the smoke. I don't believe I've been on a fire where we have pushed the fire with the fan. Not saying that is hasn't happened, just not that I've seen.

Jim Mason said:

Mike
How do you guys deterime if the fan should be used or does it always get used?
The reason I ask is the discussion was talking about if the sitution is a room and contents fire the fan works out well but if the fire has gotten into the walls it might be spread by the fan. What is your ideas on this point and how do you guys determine this with your size up if there is a difference in the 2 applications?

Permalink Reply by Mike Cervik on November 11, 2008 at 7:10pm

I wouldn't know. I've only been on 1 fatal fire, and the lady intentionally set herself on fire with lighter fluid and gas. She was gone way before we got there.

Jim Mason said:

Mike and everyone else
How does the fan use affect the survivability of victms in a PD?

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