What is your departments' primary ventilation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 3, 2008 at 4:19pm

We generally have 2 on the roof, 1 to thr rear and 2 inside. This is if there is a full crew of 5 total. If not there is 2 on the roof and 2 inside, ususally no one in the rear from the first truck.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 3, 2008 at 4:44pm

Actually I think asking when to vent or getting an order from the engine officer coordinates the venting with the extinguishment pretty well. That officer is really the person best placed inside to deteremine when to vent so the line can advance

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on November 3, 2008 at 5:01pm

It depends on the shift. On mine he goes to the roof but more as a supervisor than anything. On the other shifts I believe they go in for search. It also depends on what assignment the chief may give us.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 3, 2008 at 5:40pm

Often we can get it done with venting you mentioned Barry. Usually, reduced manning responses can coordinate the venting to get water on the fire and get any persons trapped inside. I think when we need to do this because of reduced resources we need to have a much better size up and coordination. When the investigation for the fire is complete it must be radioed to everyone so they know where to do what.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 3, 2008 at 5:46pm

Ballooon frames and simliar construction where the fire can extend rapidly upwards are important to vent espicially when the it looks like there might be an occupaiable attaic space. We have the problems of having blocks and blocks of balloon frames that are as close as 2 feet from one another where if we don;t vent the roof, even when there is no one living there, we could burn the whole block down or more . We also have the man power to get this done with the first few truck companies and that's the reason.

We don;t do the bucket cut becuse we don;t want to cut the rafters on angle for strutural failure reasons. We won't even take a saw on a roof when we can;t walk the roof. We do a ridge cut with an axe and push it down with a pole. The spot of the truck is vital to getting on and off a steep pitch also. It's an art really. Our entire rig placement and street conditions size up is based on getting the truck close enough to use the stick on a steep pitched roof.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 3, 2008 at 6:28pm

Most firefighters, especially those assigned to a Truck (Ladder Co) will give the knee jerk answer of roof venting. However, the faster and therefor more definitive ventilation tactic is to take the windows; ie horizontal ventilation. Moreover, Tom Brennen spoke on this many times and correctly pointed out that windows and skylights generally are more definitive because they generally access areas of human habitation. Whereas vertical venting is only appropriate when the fire is a top floor fire.
Additional consideration must be given to peaked roofs. Even in a top floor fire in a residential occupancy with a peaked roof, venting the roof may be extremely problematic due to clutter and congestion in the attic area as well as the potential for drawing the fire in to the previously uninvolved attic.
In occupancies with a flat roof and a top floor fire, the tactic of vertical ventilation is called for. But again, members must remember that glass (windows and skylights) usually provides access to a living area. Breaking windows is a fast and effective technique for dramatically improving interior conditions for operating companies and the survivability of victims as well as establishing a secondary escape route for interior companies.

Permalink Reply by Scott Kleinschmidt on November 3, 2008 at 7:34pm

I agree with the last post that we "truck" "rescue" or "engine" must look at conditions and decide, What is the best choice in ventilation for "this" fire, not last weeks fire or next weeks fire, but this fire. 95% of our fires here are handled with windows. Opening a skylight, you bet. Saying that PD's don't warrent verticle venting ever I would have to disagree. I don't feel like saying it's OK to open a PD up from the roof if needed is a knee jerk reaction.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 5, 2008 at 2:40pm

Yeah Mike and Scott
I think the quicker way to vent are the windows and Like Tom Brennen said that's where the people are. We do what i like to call total venting with the windows and the roof getting opened , BUT we have the FF's to do it.
Coordinating venting with the hose line advance is the trick. What do you guys do to coordinate it? Can you give us some examples?

Permalink Reply by Scott Kleinschmidt on November 5, 2008 at 6:35pm

We "most times" at single family dwellings "room and contents" will : First arriving units Squad ( 2 man west coast style) and Engine/Quint ( 3) total 5 will do the following. 3 man fire attack Sq Lt. and 2 FF. Engine Capt. will 360 and take any windows needed. Driver/operator gets water going (we still hit "room and contents" off the tank) and gets a fan to the front door. After the CO on the engine in coordination with Fire attack hears the call for the fan he starts it.
Now the problem with this is, it works well on room and contents. When we have more than that, most guys still attack it like a room and contents fire. This has created some issue's from time to time. Thank god no one has been burned. We are in a big push right now back to moving ventialtion to the top of the fire ground "food chain". This is being acomplished several ways 1 education on today's fire ground 2 re-instatement of truck company's ( we have already started removing some of the squad's) and placing importance on truck functions and ventilation tactics. We have a new COD and he is very proactive and has been very instrumental in getting us "turned around" I am still a believer in if it's more than a room and contents and I can get it opened up above in a timley fashion this is my best option.

Single family respose right now:
3 engines 9 + the one that "jumps" it 3 more
2 squads 4 + the one that "jumps" it 2 more
1 truck 3
1 b/c 1
1 s/o 1

All of our ventilation is coordinated weather it's venting for fire or venting for life.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 6, 2008 at 1:05pm

We also have the available manpower on scene to do the complete venting concept. Despite that, there are many times when cutting the roof is unwarrented and just results in unnecessary damage. That is not to say that we should not be opening up roofs; there are times when vertical venting is necessary. However, in the majority of residential fires, the engines tend to be aggressive enough that by the time the roof is opened, the fire is already under control.
Horizontal venting is much faster, therefore more definitive in facilitating an aggressive search of the interior by the truck co. as well as improving the interior for possible victims and tenability for the engine co.
As to coordination of the two operations, I agree, but I will go out on a limb and reiterate that in instances hen the engine is slowed down or arriving after the ladder, I do not believe ventilation should be delayed in order for the engine to play catch up. In fact, unless the engine is going to be seriously delayed to the box, venting operations must go forward. It facilitates the search and improves the chance of survivability for the victim.
When you consider the flex time of the truck co to force the doors, vent some windows and give the fire a chance to "breath", then push in and perform a search, the engine should have no trouble stretching a line and getting in AFTER the truck co.
All engines and trucks in Albuquerque are staffed with four firefighters. Additionally, a structure fire response includes a heavy rescue with four firefighters riding, as well as a haz mat squad for manpower and rescue ambulance and BC. A typical first alarm residential fire is 3 engines, 2 ladders, the squad, a haz mat squad and 2 BCs. Total response is 32. Once we get into multiple dwellings or mixed occupancy, the number of companies goes up.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 6, 2008 at 2:40pm

We don;t use a PPE fan in anything but large buildings after the fire has been knocked down and then it's just to move the lazy smoke so I really don;t know that much about it, so I need some latitude with it. It seems that the fan would be good when it's a room and contents but after that it seems like it mght extend some fire/smoke.
We also enter the building with tank water but get a positve source with a dedicated hydrant FF on the engine
There is nothing better than getting the roof opened with a large FF force but with smaller depts. it might need to be taking the windows out as a first quick step.
Problems of size up and being correct on which windows to vent along with coordination with the attack are the keys to success with this.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 6, 2008 at 2:55pm

Yeah Mike
The engine often doesn't need to be waited for, they can get in quick. In our firefighting plan we call for ventilation then extinguishment. Coordinated in the way that the horizontal venting is done opposite the advance of the hose attack but generally venting first then extiguishment second.
Those times with just a truck on the scene really make for some challenging predictions don't they?
What if we open up here or there for some search ? What will happen then? I had an offcier that always told us to anticpate the next thing that will happen and you'll always look like a hero.
With no engine on the scene , what else can us truckies do?

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