Highrise packs

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Permalink Reply by George H. Potter on March 11, 2008 at 5:16pm

Reply by George Potter (Madrid, Spain) 11 Mar


Smooth bore nozzles may not be the most ideal solution. You now have available combination nozzles that can flow some 200 gpm from a 1.75 inch line, at around 50 to 60 psi. With the same nozzle you can adjust the stream to shoot a fire gas diluting stream into a potential flashover space, or reduce gallonage for mop up, or any other of the potential needs in an interior fire situation. Going into a confined space fire with a smooth bore in like invading an al qaeda camp with a six gun, even if it be a 357 magnum. I would prefer more flexible firepower.
When I got into this business some 50 years ago, all we had were smooth bores and the occasional Mystery nozzle.
1.75 or 2 inch ID hose can give you the flow you will need and when fitted with a GOOD combination nozzle handled by a WELL TRAINED nozzleman can put out a hell of a lot of fire, even on the 50th floor.
Remember to put the rest of the needed hardware into the hi-rise packs; reducers, hose caps, wrenches, chocks, etc. along with at least 100 ft. of lightweight hose per pack. It might be interesting to have the hose sections shortened to 25 or 30 foot lengths.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on March 11, 2008 at 7:14pm

We carry 200 ft. of 2 1/2 lightweight house with an 1 1/4" smoothbore in our high-rise packs. We use the Metro-Fold which helps tremendously in the narrow stairwells we have in our city. By the end of the year we'll have 20 Engines with the High-Rise Packs. We just finished our new High-Rise SOP if you are interested let me know and I'll be happy to share it with you brother. michael.walker@okc.gov.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on March 11, 2008 at 8:22pm

Here is our new SOP

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on March 12, 2008 at 5:58pm

OKay, now here is our new SOP. Hope it helps. We've also developed a guide that is to be put on all of our appratus that has cards which spells out the responsibilities of each of the company assignments. I put this together because in our area High-Rise fires is such a low frequency event that even though we're going to train on this and train often it I still thought having the memory jogs would be good. I'll try to upload it but it is a huge file. I call it the LOER Guide (Low Occurence Elevated Risk Guide) It also has our SOP ops portions of our other low frequency type of emergencies.

Attachments:

• FINAL DRAFT High-Rise SOP 030608.doc, 439 KB

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on March 12, 2008 at 6:08pm

The LOER Guide. (If it loads) Its like 24 Meg

Attachments:

• Big LOER Guide pub 2000 version.pub, 24.2 MB

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Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on March 13, 2008 at 12:50pm

Hey Bob,
the City of Albuquerque Fire Dept. just updated our high rise protocol and we have started to something that sounds very similar. We are using three bundles of the 2 1/2 in to a smooth bore/ solid stream nozzle with an 1 1/8 break apart tip. We also have in our high rise kit an angled adaptor that attaches onto the stand pipe to prevent the 2 1/2 from sagging and kinking at the point of attachment.
Additionally, part of the angled adaptor has a flow meter in it for the firefighters to insure they are getting the flow they require. The lieutenant at the stand pipe can have the pump operator raise or lower the pressure based on the flow meter.
The break apart nozzles allow the operating firefighters to attach a smaller 1 3/4 hose for mop up operations. At no time during actual suppression efforts is the smaller 1 3/4 used except for mop up.
Lastly, the department has acquired small, very portable mini ground monitors to be used during high rise operations should the fire floor necessitate there use.
The high rise is very manpower intensive but, for those in larger departments that are still manpower heavy, they are feasible. For the smaller organizations I would say, make sure you have mutual aid agreements in place; you'll need the help.

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Permalink Reply by Bob Shovald on March 13, 2008 at 4:31pm

Thanks for the info brother.
Bob

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Permalink Reply by George H. Potter on March 13, 2008 at 5:46pm

Reply Nº 2 by Geoerge Potter (Madrid, Spain)

A few days back I replied to Bob Shovald's comments on hirise/standpipe hose packs. I commented on what I consider as an advantage of using combination nozzles on 13/4 or 2 inch hose. When your department suffers from that political ploy of "streamlining" to local FD as a measure to optimize budget limits, the do more with less reaches extremes.
Dave Leblanc offered a well thought out and quite correct response, a lot of junk CAN and probably WILL wind up in the standpipe (some civilians are not too civilized) and can foul up your nozzle. Dave, are the smooth bores immune to this problem?

By the way, if yiou really want firepower, I have handled an interesting prototype combination nozzle that delivered approximalely 385 gpm through a 13/4" line at 100 psi. 2 guys handled it with relative ease. Unfortunately, this bazooka is not on the market, but there are several models available that can flow over 220 gpm. When manpower is short you must have alternatives.

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Permalink Reply by George H. Potter on March 13, 2008 at 6:12pm

Reply by George Potter

The principal problem with the bazooka was that it's more than 2 ft. long, diameter is more than 6 inches and it weighs nearly 30 lbs. (dry). But I'm not kidding, the set up was in a training course in Alicante, Spain several years ago, 100 ft. of 23/4 " (70 mm) the standard lLDH here, wyed off to two 50 ft. sections of 13/4" (the second line was fitted with a standard 125 gpm (Spanish standard) but closed down. The two were a sub officer and a firefighter, and one other guy was on the gated wye. They handled the thing OK, although there was no fire they could have moved around all right. The manufacturer decided that it was too similar to an antitank rocket launcher and did not put it into production. In reality, it would have been difficult to work with in real fire conditions. Nonetheless, it could have become an interesting master stream appliance.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on March 13, 2008 at 7:12pm

take some gravel, put it in the base of a fog nozzle. Then try to do the same on a smoothbore. That will answer your question. it's not the junk people put in the standpipe necesarrily, but the scaling that builds up in the pipe and subsequentially breaks free when it is used.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Betz on March 13, 2008 at 7:18pm

We have 2 1/2" hooked to the standpipe and a gated wye to 1 3/4" with a TFT combo nozzle. I know what most of you are thinking, and not too long ago I tried to mention looking into changes. I pretty much heard "click, click, BOOM"! Got shot down pretty quick. I was hoping to check into 2", maybe 2 1/2", straight bore, and all the various options...but it was not to be.
We have a 12 story residential high rise and 2 more that are 7 stories, as well as several 3-5 story buildings. The main argument I hear is our sinfully low manpower (4-10) first alarm, possibly couldn't get the big line into operation, thus creating a bigger problem than we already had. The other point usually made is that we have short response time, which in theory means the small line could catch the fire while still small, which equals = no problem. My reply is that there are too many caveats to the theory, and I would hate to "take a knife to a gun fight".
Any suggestions you might have would be appreciated.

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Permalink Reply by Ray on March 13, 2008 at 7:47pm

Michael - It's good to hear that your department is using that set up. I do not see the need for the pump operator to adjust his pressure. The standpipe system should be augmented depending on what floor the outlet is on. If anything (the LT.) controlling the valve will make the necessary adjustments.
As for operations - Everyone says they don't have the staffing necessary - Necessary for what stretching a line from the floor below the fire?
This is crazy. With proper training on stretching off standpipes and 2 1/2 " operations it can be done.
We should be able to find three firefighters somewhere on the fireground.

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