Vertical venting discussion.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on January 30, 2009 at 10:21am

Todd
I understand where you're coming from, but, in a way your LT is right, maybe. When you're out on the street, does he stop the engine and have the company get out and discuss what to do if the building you stopped at is on fire? The fireground is most definately the place to put your training to work, but, how many times do we drive by a structure in our first due and say "man I hope I'm off, if that burns" I tell my guys, let's hope we on, we'll know what to do. know the hydrants, building construction, occupancy, etc. If you do by training to fight fires, like Brick said, we are going to be prepared and able to make a good decision as an officer, and a great stop, as firefighters.

Permalink Reply by Mark Langston on January 30, 2009 at 12:17pm

I agree with the over specialization trend. It is important and you do need guys to do it, but when it takes a priority from basic fire training that isn't good. When I made Captain I dropped off the TRT team because I didn't want my company out of service all the time. Im still on SCUBA but I felt that my main priority is in protecting my territory primarily for fire protection so if my company is out of service doing non fire training alot I didn't want that. So I dropped back to focus on fire.

Also, training should be done before a fire or emergency but I always try to use a fire to train and reinforce tactics. The best way to do something or what could we have done better, etc...

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on January 30, 2009 at 12:34pm

Jeff and Mark,
I agree whole heartedly. Using the fire ground is a fantastic place to use as on the job training. It is the real world place to show what works and doesn't work and why.

I frequently ask if we can spend a few minutes after a fire to bring the crews in and see what took place and why things were done the way they were. Especially with less actual fire jobs these days. Usually I'm told we have to get back in service and back to the station. Not always, but usually. My thought is if we're in service at the scene, wouldn't that be acceptable and use that 5-10 minutes for an impromptu critique?

Jeff, I understand what you're saying with stopping and or even discussing buildings and such on the way back from runs. Doesn't happen. Gotta get back to the station! A few times I was able to get an officer to take the time but that has since fallen to the way side. Don't really understand why, but it did none the less.

It just seems that EVERYTHING takes precedent over anything fire related, at least in my little world.

KTF & bring everybody home!
Todd

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on January 30, 2009 at 1:00pm

Jim,
Sorry for getting off task on your discussion.
Getting to the roof for us seems to be an after thought, in my opinion. It's not in our SOP's and it's up to the IC to decide if he wants it opened or not.
As far as getting off the roof, it's kind of left to the roof crew leader and/or the IC-safety, whom ever sees or feels something is going south would make the call.
Something I have heard is let it burn through itself, that way nobody gets hurt on the roof. To that I ask "What? Won't it spread through the entire space before it vents itself?" Well maybe but at least nobody will get hurt on the roof. How about we practice so we know how not to get hurt AND still accomplish the task!
There I go again!!
KTF & bring everybody home!
Todd

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on January 30, 2009 at 1:18pm

Todd
Trust me, you are not alone. Big thing for many folks, is ok fires out let's get back to the house, (insert sport) is on. KTF Brother, and keep asking. Making the roof is the same for us here too. Last time a chief told my crew to go to the roof, all he said was cut a h***, period. When I asked where he wanted it, he assigned another company to do it. I'll find the pictures and post them, the group should enjoy these. The fire was pulled across the attic to the h***, pretty fire picture. Just stay the course Bro, the more members that ask that officer to talk about a building the better your chances. Talk to your shift, see what they say, hopefully, they will agree with you.

Stay Safe
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 3, 2009 at 4:09pm

Todd
I'm with you all the way on that we don;t train on the fire ground. We need to figure most of it out prior to arrival on the scene. I like to call it the "what if" and the "what is". I mean we do What if this hgappens or that happens. We should do this do death because if we don;t it could mean our deaths ( or one of the brothers) What of we have a fire in this building ot that one? What is the difference in the two construction styles? why does it matter if the construction styles are different? What of the fire is in the basement? What if there are peolpe hanging from the front windows when we arrive? What if someone on the scene tells us the thing someone is still inside of the building? etc, etc. etc....You get the idea, we do this and find solutions to the problems because that is what will eventually arrive to on the scene. Too much of the training time is spent on EMS (I've never heard of a FF that died doing CPR), HAZMAT, Tech rescue, NIMS, diversity, etc.. and I think we should be training on what we can regularlly do and what can actually kill us - firefighitng!

Then I think we should do the "What is" when we arrive on the scene. What is happening and what can be done to first slow down and then stop the damage completely? This is actually putting our imagined situations from the preplanning into actions.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 3, 2009 at 4:34pm

You know guys,
The problems in the big picutre of the fire service is this. You can only change what you are in charge of. We've all be there before and will likely be there again in the future because w e may not get to the top and will always have a boss. I like to think of the priorites of the job (carrer or volenter) as the following
1 get all the money for you and your guys that they are entitled to ( we are here first to put food on the table at home for the family. If we were indepentandtly wealthy we wouldn't be doing this.)
2 everyone goes home
3 watch the liabilites of the job and your duties (for example - don;t get caught doing something that is noble but is not seen that way by your superiors. This could be working in the fire buidlng when they want you out even if conditions are not that bad and exiting would be the wrong action to take, also everyone has a lawyer ready to take aim at us)
4 learn from the mistakes of others ( don;t repeat the mistakes of those in front of us and keep the faith for those behind us , stay proactive in your instruction for the new guys)
I guess alot of this is the FOOLS thing and I'm not a member. (The only current chapter is a closed except to the chosen and there seems to be little interest in starting another one the north side) but the credo is the truth. When it;'s our time we'll be different and we;ll leave it better than how we found it.
This to me is common and moral sense firefighting

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 3, 2009 at 6:31pm

Mark
I got to give you credit for making the decision to get off the TRT team. Most guys would be gripping to stay on and be that capt. I think the fires are the most dangerous because the split second decison making on the fire ground are so difficult for first arriving companies. On many of the tech recues we have time to decide things and there are numerous redundant systems.



Mark Langston said:

I agree with the over specialization trend. It is important and you do need guys to do it, but when it takes a priority from basic fire training that isn't good. When I made Captain I dropped off the TRT team because I didn't want my company out of service all the time. Im still on SCUBA but I felt that my main priority is in protecting my territory primarily for fire protection so if my company is out of service doing non fire training alot I didn't want that. So I dropped back to focus on fire.

Also, training should be done before a fire or emergency but I always try to use a fire to train and reinforce tactics. The best way to do something or what could we have done better, etc...

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 3, 2009 at 6:37pm

Todd
We have alot FF's show up at the first due alarm so we can get to roof on every fire . This is certainly a luxury that many dept don;t have. The decisions a opening the roof along with all the other duties needed intially on the scene must be tougher to make when it needs to be done ala- carte, but that is the game with smaller responses. I think that every task performed should be situational in then sense that we need to do it on this type of building/response and not necassarily on that type of response. What type of inciednts does the roof usually get opened on your dept?

Todd Trudeau said:

Jim,
Sorry for getting off task on your discussion.
Getting to the roof for us seems to be an after thought, in my opinion. It's not in our SOP's and it's up to the IC to decide if he wants it opened or not.
As far as getting off the roof, it's kind of left to the roof crew leader and/or the IC-safety, whom ever sees or feels something is going south would make the call.
Something I have heard is let it burn through itself, that way nobody gets hurt on the roof. To that I ask "What? Won't it spread through the entire space before it vents itself?" Well maybe but at least nobody will get hurt on the roof. How about we practice so we know how not to get hurt AND still accomplish the task!
There I go again!!
KTF & bring everybody home!
Todd

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on February 10, 2009 at 9:20am

In my dept., the roof is very rarely opened or if it is, it's pretty well into the game. I think we could start by assigning the 2nd due on working commericial fires (for starters) to the roof but that fell on deaf ears, as most things do.





Jim Mason said:

Todd
We have alot FF's show up at the first due alarm so we can get to roof on every fire . This is certainly a luxury that many dept don;t have. The decisions a opening the roof along with all the other duties needed intially on the scene must be tougher to make when it needs to be done ala- carte, but that is the game with smaller responses. I think that every task performed should be situational in then sense that we need to do it on this type of building/response and not necassarily on that type of response. What type of inciednts does the roof usually get opened on your dept?

Todd Trudeau said:

Jim,
Sorry for getting off task on your discussion.
Getting to the roof for us seems to be an after thought, in my opinion. It's not in our SOP's and it's up to the IC to decide if he wants it opened or not.
As far as getting off the roof, it's kind of left to the roof crew leader and/or the IC-safety, whom ever sees or feels something is going south would make the call.
Something I have heard is let it burn through itself, that way nobody gets hurt on the roof. To that I ask "What? Won't it spread through the entire space before it vents itself?" Well maybe but at least nobody will get hurt on the roof. How about we practice so we know how not to get hurt AND still accomplish the task!
There I go again!!
KTF & bring everybody home!
Todd

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 21, 2009 at 3:45pm

Todd
On commercial buildings, tha roof report is critical to determine if the interior attack can continue. Commercial occupancies need to have the roof assessed, even if it's 10-15 minutes into the operation and even if it's not going to be opened up. All of this is so the IC will know if fire has exposed the roof assembly and the building is likley to collapse

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