Vindicator

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Permalink Reply by john henkel on January 19, 2009 at 8:31pm

OK HOW ABOUT 50 gpm at the tip flowing 250 gpms and one person that weighs 125lbs can operate with
one hand,thats very impressive,when I go to work tuesday I can give you all the friction loss and flow test
that we did with Kirk

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Permalink Reply by john henkel on January 19, 2009 at 8:52pm

oops 50 psi @ tip flowing 250 gpm

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Permalink Reply by Rob Cannon on January 19, 2009 at 10:02pm

They're a decent nozzle ... they work better as a foam nozzle.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Clayton on January 20, 2009 at 8:31am

Thats a pretty big statement saying that it's the best nozzle for any department! As far as who wouldn't want this nozzle...I wouldn't, I need more information!
Are you asking for feedback, or is a blanket statement?
I'm sure there are many others here that like the 'vindicator', and just as many who don't. I can't form an opinion because I've never researched, trained on or used a 'vindicator'.
Brent is right, we need more details. With a statement like your first post you must have the details....
I hope the 'Vindicator' keeps you safe...

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Permalink Reply by Dave Gallagher on January 20, 2009 at 8:40am

With everything out there such a broad stroke of 'the best nozzle' is a little presumptuous and sounds more like opinion than fact. My department did much research on various configurations due to our short staffing. The 50 psi kinked frequently and without a larger engine crew, the kinks couldn't be chased and resolved.
I heartily agree with most of the other posts about research and facts.

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Permalink Reply by Ray on January 20, 2009 at 9:26am

It is not a smooth bore nozzle. In another post this nozzle came up. My engine company pilot tested an 1 3/4 Vindicator for FDNY the result - we did not feel it was for us.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Clayton on January 20, 2009 at 9:47am

I just google'd 'vindicator fire nozzle' and found some interesting data...if it's true. It appears to be an FDNY study, maybe Mr. McCormack can verify this...
The data states that it delivers quite a punch of water to the fire, and it seems to deliver large, coarse drops of water. So it's not fog, and it's not smooth.
I'm not sold on it, but currently I can't dispute the data unless it's false. I'd like to try one in a burn building to see what it can do compared to the SM-10 I use now. On second thought, I'd like to try any smoothbore to compare it to my SM-10!

Ray, I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't think it was for you...I'm sure there are many here that value your opinion and knowledge.

Stay safe everyone...

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Permalink Reply by john henkel on January 20, 2009 at 11:24am

Here are some stats and facts about the Vindicator nozzle compared to the akron brass blitz attack nozzle.
1 3/4 hose 200 ft. discharge pressure 155. pre-connect pressure 150. pre-connect friction loss 5. nozzle pressure 80.
gpm 175.hose friction loss 70.
Now the Vindicator. 1 3/4 hose 200 ft. discharge pressure 155.pre-connect pressure 140. pre-connect friction loss 15.
nozzle pressure 42. gpm 227 hose friction loss 98.
we also did testing with 2 1/2 with the same results.this nozzle also has a quicker cooling ratio that will help limit
flash over potential.that is a big plus that you dont get with a fog nozzle,and the reach of the stream is more effective
remember this is fact.put this nozzle beside a fog and you will see the huge diffrence.

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Permalink Reply by Kirk Allen on January 20, 2009 at 6:44pm

As the manufacture of the Vindictator line of nozzles I want to make sure everyone understands a couple of things.

First and Foremost, The Vindicator does not replace what you currently use. Its a tool. Numerous applicatoins but those have to be determined by each department as we all do things a little different.

Secondly, ALL of the information on our web site is fact based and 100% supported by numerous independent orginazations. Rest assured if it was not, the competition would have disproven it long ago, which will never happen! If its on our web site its true!

Ray, you stated "we did not feel it was for us"
I can appreciate that position but saying it was not for "us" leads people to an assumption that your speaking for FDNY. As having had the opportunity to work with several key members of your deparment I can say that the nozzle was in fact something several key Chief Officers felt they needed, to include very respected Chiefs like Chief Ganci, Safety Chief Al Turi, and Chief Jerry Tracy, who were involved in the testing from day one. Yes, some crews did not feel it was something they wanted to switch to from what they were using but in numerous cases, investigation into those views pointed to numerous other issues that had nothing to do with the nozzles performance, such as hose with double the FL that was being calculated and under pumping hose lines for target flows and in a few cases, unfounded fear of reduced manning because of the nozzles performance.

The FDNY R&D test results are factual and I would hope that facts take precedence when lives are on the line. Sure many other factors come into play when a city makes a purchasing decision but I know when Chief Ganci asked me personaly to make them a 500 GPM handline nozzle for a 2 1/2", which we did, we knew we were on the right track.

With that, again I emphasize this nozzle is not intended to replace your nozzles. Its a tool. Where and when it gest used is something each and every department decides, not us, the manufacture.

Jeff Clayton:
NFPA 1410 outlines a handline flow guidline of 100 and 200 gpm for our attack lines. If your using SM-10's on your attack lines your only meeting the minimum flow for the intitial attack line and thats provided your actually getting the 100 gpm that nozzle is designed to flow. I would suggest stepping up to at least the SM-20 as it will flow that 200-gpm flow, provide your getting 100 psi to the nozzle. If you only get 75 pis to that same tip your only flowing 76-gpm so please measure your flows and build pump charts accordingly. The result you would see from 100 gpm to 200 gpm would be like putting a match out with a spray bottle at 10 paces versus putting the same match out in a glass of water.

John,
I appreciate the support but please understand, those who have not sat through the fire behavior / hydraulics class that you did have not been exposed to the facts needed in this ongoing battle of nozzles and their application. Please confirm for everyone that we do not promote the Vindicator as a repalcement to what you have. That is not what we are all about. Now if after testing and using a particular product you feel its the best for your department then great. The key is doing proper testing, as you know.

If I could promote anything it would be to change all the text books and require each and every department to own, calibrate, and use flow meters and inline pressure gauges on a regular basis. I have been teaching class's for years on tactical fire flows and its sickening to see major departments that "think" they are flowing big water when in reality many are lucky to be flowing 125 gpm, and many not even breaking the 100 gpm mark.

I mean this with all my heart! When IFSTA's own measured results reflected the students were only flowing 53% of what they just got trained tells me we have a major text book challenge. Admitting their is a problem is the first step of fixing things. I dont care what nozzle you use but please, for the sake of your own lives as well as the lives of your crew's and community, test your flow rates with proper equipment and quit taking sales peoples word on the flows your getting.

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Permalink Reply by Jimmy Adams on January 20, 2009 at 7:19pm

For the price of these nozzle you can buy a lot of smooth bore nozzles. On one of the past departments I worked for it was in a cross lay but was never pulled. Guys hated it. The old chief bought it and with no field testing and the guys never liked it. It does work good with foam.

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Permalink Reply by john henkel on January 20, 2009 at 7:25pm

Kirk,sorry I just wanted people to be more open minded about your product,I should have stated,more clearly
that it is not a complete and total replacement,but should be added to there attack format,and there are other good
products,but using the vindicator first hand it's amazing.I am happy to say we use all three that we have.

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Permalink Reply by john henkel on January 20, 2009 at 8:22pm

Thats why field tests are important,to show the diffrences,cost is always a factor with any good equipment that is field proven,but as always it is not the complete fix but is great to have more than one choice

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