Smooth versus Fog ( Pros & Cons)

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Permalink Reply by Greg cousler on December 6, 2008 at 3:38pm

With regard to a 3" or 2.5" hose line deployed for exposure protection which nozzle would be better? I realize that the smooth bore will have greater reach and will be easier to handle. I was thinking that the combination nozzle with a tight fog pattern might offer greater protection against direct flame contact and radient heat. I was also wondering if anyone out there is using the Vindicator nozzle?

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Permalink Reply by Danny Miller on December 14, 2008 at 8:59pm

For exposure protection, a fog pattern poses no real protection. Radient heat will penitrate right through the stream. Best way to keep the exposure cool is to directly wet it with lots of water. Raising the fuel moisture and giving it the moisture to loose is the best corse of action. Smooth bore gives you a lot more water but if all you have is a combi then use it.

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Permalink Reply by Tim Williams on December 16, 2008 at 2:16pm

My department made the decision several years ago after myself and a buddy of mine proved to our administration that a smooth bore nozzle has itsa palce on the apparatus. We carry both smooth bore and automatic nozzles so that peole have a choice. I tend to disagree with some replies on the foam applications. It might dpend on the foam that you are using. We use F-500 and the manufacturer likes the smooth bore for its application as well as the fog. You proved with the TFT nozzles that we carry that we were not getting the flow the nozzle said or was designed to flow. We have seen better and quicker knockdowns with the smooth bore.

You can also hydraulic ventilate with the smooth bore if you only open it half way. We have proven this in training and real incidents. We are using the Akron 1 inch smooth bore on our 1 3/4 lines and on the hotel/high rise pack on my engine. We still have some convincing to do getting the smooth bores on the hotel/high rise packs. Some things do take time.

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Permalink Reply by Joseph Huntley on December 17, 2008 at 9:24pm

I have read through this discussion and haven't seen any discussion on smooth bore for CAFS application. I agree that smooth bore is not for plain foam use. Our lead truck has CAFS and the two 1 3/4 preconnects have breakaway nozzles. The smooth bore does alot nicer job of applying CAFS. The combination tip seems to strip the air that the compressor adds out of the foam.

Any thoughts on this use of smooth bore?

Joe

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Permalink Reply by Nick Weiland on December 19, 2008 at 4:40pm

Hey fellas, I have bit of a technical question about smoothbores. I have won the battle at my volley house, and we are purchasing a handful of smoothbores. I was basically getting the Akron FDNY spec nozzles until one dealer said to step up my 1 ½” nozzle. FDNY spec (and correct me if I’m wrong Capt. McCormack) are 1 ½” inlet w/ a 1” orifice and 1 ½” outlet w/ 15/16” tip. That is the nozzle I wanted, but one dealer told me to step up the orifice size to 1 3/8”. I was thinking the bigger orifice may cause more turbulence and lack of a better water stream. Anyone with insight or proven methods please let me know.

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Permalink Reply by John LoFaro on December 20, 2008 at 7:46pm

Tim Williams said:

My department made the decision several years ago after myself and a buddy of mine proved to our administration that a smooth bore nozzle has itsa palce on the apparatus. We carry both smooth bore and automatic nozzles so that peole have a choice. I tend to disagree with some replies on the foam applications. It might dpend on the foam that you are using. We use F-500 and the manufacturer likes the smooth bore for its application as well as the fog. You proved with the TFT nozzles that we carry that we were not getting the flow the nozzle said or was designed to flow. We have seen better and quicker knockdowns with the smooth bore.

You can also hydraulic ventilate with the smooth bore if you only open it half way. We have proven this in training and real incidents. We are using the Akron 1 inch smooth bore on our 1 3/4 lines and on the hotel/high rise pack on my engine. We still have some convincing to do getting the smooth bores on the hotel/high rise packs. Some things do take time.

Tim,

An excellent argument you could present to get smoot bores on your high rise packs is the 'Skittles' or 'M&M' test. This is a test in which you should be able to pore a bag of Skittles down your high rise nozzle and all should come out on the other side. This is to simulate debris and corrosion in the standpipe that may inhibit your attack nozzle's performance ie cigarette buts, gum/wrappers, rust/corroded pipe etc. Also, due to friction loss in elevated floors, you don't need as much pressure to operate a smoothbore compared to a VSVG nozzle. Greater GPM with less pressure, better penetration and cooling, less steam burns. The only drawback is less pressure in the line, the easier it is to kink the hose, but a seasoned Engine Co can overcome this. Good luck, stay low

never let a dead man say his training failed him

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Permalink Reply by Anthony Riehl on December 27, 2008 at 10:43am

Boy whenever this subject comes up it alway stirs up controversy. I'm a pretty big advocate for the smooth bore nozzle I find that for fire attack it is the best tool for the job and puts less variables in the equation. For example, a fog nozzle can manlfunction a little bit of debris in the system can shut down your fire attack operation, also a fog nozzle accidentally opened to fog can lead to steam burns and disruption of the thermal balance which is a real concern. Nozzle reaction of the fog nozzle is also a problem especially if you have limited manpower smooth bore is just easier on the nozzle team (especially on a 2 1/2 in line) and makes the nozzlemans life easier. Fog nozzles have their place in the fire service it makes for an excellent back up line which is generally the way my department operates. First line in smoothbore backup line a fog nozzle this works for us. The argument on fog ventilation always seems to come up in this discussion truth is a good ladder company that provides adaquate and timely horizontal an verticle ventilation will provide for your vent need. Bottom line is just like anything else in this business from basic engine and truck ops to tech rescue the tool is not designed for the job instead the job is designed for the tool. O.K lets see where this goes just figures I'd add my 2 cents. Stay safe brothers.

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Permalink Reply by Brenda Tenney on December 27, 2008 at 2:46pm

I agree with you Tom,i would go with the combination nozzles,You use the one ,that fits the need.

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