Vent , Enter, Search Video and Size Up

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 26, 2008 at 3:13pm

Gents,

In an effort to get “back on track”, let me get the ball rolling with a few thoughts on VES training.

In teaching Tactics I and II classes, I repeatedly hear firefighters describe VES as many different things and the criteria for conducting VES is often not known. In short, I think we need to do a better job with VES training. I believe that there is a significant lack of understanding across the fire service as to what VES is, and what VES is not. VES is a tactic that when employed, should be initiated following a narrow set of criteria. VES instruction, in many cases, misses some very key points. Specifically, the entry should not rapidly follow the ventilation.

There is always a desire to get in and begin the search; however, VES requires members to resist the urge to "jump-in" and get started. Real discipline is required when performing VES. What I’m getting at is that following the venting of the window, you should not be in a hurry to make rapid entry. It is very important to take some time to look, listen, observe and wait. Look for signs of life, observe and assess the smoke and heat conditions, listen for noises, cries or voices and wait to see what the results of your ventilation will be. The act of ventilating may, especially if the door to the room is open, cause a severe and rapid change in conditions. If you don’t take a bit of time to look, listen, observe and wait, your rapid entry may put you in a very dangerous situation.

Additionally, training should also stress the recognition of features, furniture and objects that will likely be found in rooms suitable for VES and rooms that are not suitable for VES. Bedrooms are the target, not living rooms, kitchens etc..

VES is designed to target bedrooms with a high degree of opportunity for occupancy. The size of the rooms should be small. The control of the room’s door is the first priority as that will be your only protection and may buy the necessary time to complete your rapid search. VES is not an entry point for an extended primary search. If members make entry and either can’t locate and close the door or they realize they are not in a bedroom, they should make a rapid exit. VES does not mean entering to conduct a primary search.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 26, 2008 at 6:34pm

I agree completely that we should be doing VES when there is a need to perform it, not all the time. I also like what you have to say about waiting at the window to consider the fire conditions before entering. This may be the time it takes to put the mask on or even longer if need be , depending on what is happening out in the hallway. Are we training our FF's to put their mask on while on the ladder without droping to their knees and putting their gloves and helmet on the ground?

A couple of points on coordination and size up on the fire ground, do you think that we could anticipate the VES technique if we were the officer on the engine company? I mean, what if the FF going up the ladder for VES did see some one on the floor in the light of the hallway that is starting to flash (this is before he enters the window)? Now what? The hallway is starting to flash and the door is open, so the VES FF can see the vicitm?
Maybe the engine officer could anticipate the VES operation and have the 1 3/4 line ready to hand up the ladder to the VES FF(s). The critiria for doing the VES is that the stairs are unaccessible beacuse of fire or we would have used them to reach the second floor bedroom where the vicitms are reported to be.

OR , Maybe the engine officer could dedicate 1 FF(if available) to have a charged 1 3/4 hose line available to the VES FF and the rest of the engine crew goes in to the first floor to knock down as much fire as possible. For me it's bring a 2 1/2 to knock some big fire down in the first floor, we can deal with the muscle soreness from the experince later! This dedicated engine FF (or even pump operator, after he sets the pump pressures) is outside under the supervision of the truck officer where he should not be in that great a danger, right??!!
Here's another question on the VES trick, what if the building is of light weight (truss built) construction and the same amount of fire is showing as in the video? Now what?



Art Zern said:

Gents,

In an effort to get “back on track”, let me get the ball rolling with a few thoughts on VES training.

In teaching Tactics I and II classes, I repeatedly hear firefighters describe VES as many different things and the criteria for conducting VES is often not known. In short, I think we need to do a better job with VES training. I believe that there is a significant lack of understanding across the fire service as to what VES is, and what VES is not. VES is a tactic that when employed, should be initiated following a narrow set of criteria. VES instruction, in many cases, misses some very key points. Specifically, the entry should not rapidly follow the ventilation.

There is always a desire to get in and begin the search; however, VES requires members to resist the urge to "jump-in" and get started. Real discipline is required when performing VES. What I’m getting at is that following the venting of the window, you should not be in a hurry to make rapid entry. It is very important to take some time to look, listen, observe and wait. Look for signs of life, observe and assess the smoke and heat conditions, listen for noises, cries or voices and wait to see what the results of your ventilation will be. The act of ventilating may, especially if the door to the room is open, cause a severe and rapid change in conditions. If you don’t take a bit of time to look, listen, observe and wait, your rapid entry may put you in a very dangerous situation.

Additionally, training should also stress the recognition of features, furniture and objects that will likely be found in rooms suitable for VES and rooms that are not suitable for VES. Bedrooms are the target, not living rooms, kitchens etc..

VES is designed to target bedrooms with a high degree of opportunity for occupancy. The size of the rooms should be small. The control of the room’s door is the first priority as that will be your only protection and may buy the necessary time to complete your rapid search. VES is not an entry point for an extended primary search. If members make entry and either can’t locate and close the door or they realize they are not in a bedroom, they should make a rapid exit. VES does not mean entering to conduct a primary search.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 27, 2008 at 1:11am

-Chris, taking the can with you during a VES is an interesting idea, though I must confess after having performed VES I wonder at the practicality of it. I think carrying the can with you would be more of a hindrance then a help since it would almost certainly slow down the searching firefighter in his efforts to clear the window, get through the window and maintaining a rapid pace while conducting the search. Remember too that this firefighter should have some type of hand tool as well when entering the environment; an ax, halligan, a six foot hook....
-Certainly a second or back up firefighter remaining outside the environment could be waiting at the window with the can provided the extinguisher could be secured or ditched in a rapid, safe manner should a victim be located and the assistance of the second firefighter is required.
-One of the essential elements to a VES is speed. Not carelessness or recklessness but cautious speed. Quickly evaluate the interior tenability, the floor and get as good a picture of the room lay out as possible and then go. In fact, these evaluations can be taking place while the window is simultaneously vented.
-And, I must say, if your taking the time to refill the can while inside the environment then you're not conducting a search evolution that has any element associated with a crucial life and death trapped victim. Moreover, if you have that kind of time on your hands then you shouldn't be considering VES at all.
-Searching a typical sized bedroom, 20x20 at best, that has the usual assortment of furnishings to take up useable real estate inside the room; from the time the firefighter enters the room until exiting should be no more than 30 seconds.
-I know, I know, you're saying you can't put time limits or time frames on this type of thing in reality. 30 seconds is a guideline, a timeframe from which to gain a perspective not a hard and fast rule.
-Consider though that this is a search mission of a high target area of a residential occupancy in a place where the victim is most likely to be located. Speed is integral. Get in, isolate the environment if possible, perform a rapid search working back toward the exit and get out. If a firefighter takes more than 30 seconds to perform the isolation/search after entering the environment they're wasting time, which the victim doesn't have much of and endangering themselves and their teammates.
-Should a victim be located during the search, the firefighter can summon help via the radio (cause no one goes in without a radio, right) and move the victim to the window and begin to effect the rescue.
-Keep the ideas coming and stay safe.
-BRICK

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 27, 2008 at 10:16am

Happy Thanksgiving fellas,

Depending on how your department handles your RIC operations and how soon they arrive, could the RIC pull the "extra" line that Jim suggested. In my case, our RIC takes a pro-active approach and pulling a line for the possible use to cover, protect or darken a fire advancing during a VES operation seems like it would fit the duties of RIC.

What are your thoughts.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 27, 2008 at 11:59am

-Art,
typically, our heavy rescue (4 personnel) takes up the functions of RIC; they respond as part of any first alarm assignment. (3 engines, 2 ladders, Rescue, 2 ambulances, 2 batt chiefs and a haz mat squad for manpower)
-As part of standard RIC duties, the officer performs a 360 of the structure if possible and meets with the IC to get the best picture while the rest of the company gathers up their equipment to include, an extra SCBA, Irons, six foot hook, the Can, Life LIne with a harness in the bag, The TIC and the RIT bag which has an SCBA bottle and regulator as well as a quick connection for the down firefighter. The RIT bag also has a tag line and carabiners.
-After assembling their gear they report to the command post and await further instructions. The RIC will generally not get involved stretching a line.
-We are very fortunate here in Albuquerque in that we have very good staffing (4 personnel on all pieces). There are enough companies and personnel on scene to handle stretching back up lines and second or even third attack lines. Like everyone else though, we could always use more staffing, which sounds horrible to say especially after learning of some of the deplorable staffing levels other FDs are forced to work with.
-The thought process is to have RIC avoid getting involved in any portion of the operation, leaving them free for rapid deployment around the fire ground. I know that RIC can become involved in minor functions but we just like to keep them free.
-If RIC is utilized on any portion of the action, it is well after the necessity for RIC has been mitigated.
-If Rescue is needed due to occupancy or because of special circumstance, then another Ladder or Engine will take over as the RIC.
-It has been my personal experience, and this is not to suggest things always happen this way (just my experience), but whenever I have been involved with VES it is usually very dynamic. By that I mean, the need has been identified, action decided upon and executed very rapidly and has always taken place on an exposure remote from stretched hand lines or in an area difficult to access and remote from other operations.
-Stay safe Brothers,
-BRICK

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 27, 2008 at 1:03pm

Brick,

Our RIC has the same initial duties upon arrival with one twist. We are normally equipped with 30 minute cylinders, as RIC is gathering their equipment, they switch to 60 minute cylinders. The logic is that perhaps the additional time may make a difference.

I also agree with the dynamic nature of VES operations and also that often the location of VES operations is often remote from the attack groups entry point and therefore remote from where lines are likely stretched.

Our RIC is by necessity a proactive company. As you said, if they are put to work based on occupancy, the rescue profile or fire conditions on arrival, RIC is back-filled. If it goes to a box, an additional engine and truck or squad and a RIC Chief is added. Our RIC will not commit to anything interior; however, they will throw ladders, clean windows, check for locked or blocked exits etc....

I guess I was just trying to address Jim's point about having an "extra" line if possible. I do think the second VES man at the tip should or could have a can or pressurized water nearby or hanging below a rung. As you know, you can knock down some fire with a can.

Have a great Thanksgiving,

Art

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on November 27, 2008 at 1:40pm

So, is it just me or is guys at the station on Thanksgiving responding today?

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 3, 2008 at 9:05pm

Mike Thanks for adding to the discussion!
Here is what I think this video brings to members of the fire service working towards a better future like yourself.
Specifically this video show that we need to size up, decide what is wrong and fix it the best we can! This is all we ever do on the fire ground, every time. Everything we do falls into one of these three catagories.
This video allows us to set policy on VES as an individual dept. It shows what will happen when we push too far and are not anticipating every problem. The only person that can decide if to go into the room is the FF on the ladder tip. Here is a few size up tips to help FF's on the tip of the ladder decide on going in or not. This is what we do in real life and on this page- make fire ground decisions
From the ladder tip - could the Capt see the entire room floor plan except the closet because of the light from the hallway flashover? Yes or no - might this size up of the situation make the go or don;t go decision for the FF on the tip.
The FF on the tip MUST predict what will happen in the next minute or so while he will be in the room
If there is any question - don;t go in ( out lives over theirs)
If the fire is in the hallway get a hoseline up to the tip FF so he can push the fire back out into the hall if possible. This is if there is a real chance of a rescue. Getting the hose line to the ladder base may have to be done in advance by some one not needed on the ladder and based on the VES operation starting to go into motion. If there is a question and the line won;t push the fire, don't go in.
There could be several more dept. SOP's that could come out of this video like the engine must report to the IC, for the most part VES is a one room search, the VES FF reports before and after, consider if a big person (foe example ) can be lifted in time before the flashover, etc... the but that is for others to decide. I think the video actually helps set policy. Does this help at all?
Mike Walker said:

This post is primarily to Jim and Art but also to anyone else who has experience with VES:

This last year me and others on my department, Oklahoma City, introduced VES to the entire department. I and other BC's had our entire shift practice this skill and we showed them videos about the tactic and touted this as great tool to use at appropriate times. This last week I came across the afore mentioned video on vententersearch.com. When I first saw the video I saw what I thought were obvious signs of flashover prior to the Captains entry into the room. I showed the video to my offiers and expressed my opinion as to this video depicting an example of when a good tactic is applied inappropriately.

Now, much to my suprise, men that I respect are claiming that this video in fact shows a stellar performance. I'm perplexed. I have to admit that I responded in the comments section of the video and my comments were too harsh. I can definitely understand making a hasty decision on the scene in an attempt to rescue a hepless victim. I have been quilty of that myself,believe it or not.

Gentlemen, call me what you will, suggest I find another line of work if you want, but as a Chief Officer I can not see me slapping one of my officers on the back if they performed VES in that situation.

The conflict I have with this is I tell my officers to look for the signs of flashover, I send them to schools to sharpen their ability to avoid death and injury. I send them to schools so that they can perform aggressive tactics efficiently. I advocate aggressive tactics but also advocate those tactics be tempered with sound judgement. Then a video that shows the precursers of flashover as clearly as I've ever seen on a video, and a firefighter deliberately climbing into that environment, is supposed to be applauded?

Now as my superiors, collegues,and subordinates look at me, as one of the guys who brought this tactic to my department, with their heads slightly tilted due to this video and the praises being heaped on this firefighter, I just have to ask (with all due respect mind you); Is it appropriate to make VES in a room about to flashover or not? Is it appropriate to enter a room that is flashing over? If it is, please help me explain this to my people and to the other departments I've taught this to.

Just how exactly am I to justify the actions taken on this video? Again, I mean no disrespect, I just don't see how we can, on one hand, warn our brothers and sisters about flashover and how to avoid getting caught in one, and then on the other hand, advocate ignoring those signs when we "feel" like it is necessary.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 3, 2008 at 9:32pm

I like the hose line thing to the window for the first VES FF then handed off (left on the ladder when he goes in) and then the second FF on the ladder has it . If the 1 3/4 hose line is stiff from pressure it will stand with little, if any help, on the ladder or next to it. The second FF can protect the first with the line, then drop it off the ladder for the vicitm lift if need be. a 1 3/4 stream will hit a 20 x 20 foot bedroom door to the hallway. The line can be brought over to the window even by a non combatant as long as it is charged.


Art Zern said:

Brick,

Our RIC has the same initial duties upon arrival with one twist. We are normally equipped with 30 minute cylinders, as RIC is gathering their equipment, they switch to 60 minute cylinders. The logic is that perhaps the additional time may make a difference.

I also agree with the dynamic nature of VES operations and also that often the location of VES operations is often remote from the attack groups entry point and therefore remote from where lines are likely stretched.

Our RIC is by necessity a proactive company. As you said, if they are put to work based on occupancy, the rescue profile or fire conditions on arrival, RIC is back-filled. If it goes to a box, an additional engine and truck or squad and a RIC Chief is added. Our RIC will not commit to anything interior; however, they will throw ladders, clean windows, check for locked or blocked exits etc....

I guess I was just trying to address Jim's point about having an "extra" line if possible. I do think the second VES man at the tip should or could have a can or pressurized water nearby or hanging below a rung. As you know, you can knock down some fire with a can.

Have a great Thanksgiving,

Art

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page