Use of TIC's for Investigation for Fire Location

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 17, 2008 at 9:49pm

Jim,

I think the key here is to know the capabilities and limitations of all of the tools at your disposal. The TIC is a wonderful tool; however, it is limited. The TIC should not become a crutch and should not be expected to provide information that is not capable of providing. The TIC reads surface temperatures and as demonstrated in the UL studies, even with severe fire conditions below the floor, the surface temps on top of the finished floors were quite low in comparison.

We seem to keep hitting on the need to complete a 360 size-up prior to entry. This is one of those items that is repeatedly sited as a contribution factor in LODDs and injuries…. The failure to complete a proper size-up. Now, that may not always be easy and with large occupancies or structures in the middle of a block of buildings may be impossible for a company officer to accomplish in a timely manner. On my department, we use the first arriving ambulance (cross-trained firefighter/Paramedics) to drive the 360 on very large buildings, middle of the block structures and other difficult buildings to "walk" the 360. However you do it, it needs to get done.

I think this study will change some department's tactics if they relied upon the TIC to warn of conditions above or below. To be sure, there may be telltale signs that may be picked-up by an experienced, careful TIC operator. Signs such as: perimeter heat, heat rising from floor vents, heated nail or screw heads etc.... However, the tried and true methods of opening up the ceiling as you make entry and evaluating what is happening below cannot be forgotten as new technology is introduced and takes hold. Many of the “old” ways still have value and should continue to be used and the new technology used to enhance the methods that depend only on our members knowledge, training and experience and not computers and technology.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 17, 2008 at 11:10pm

Jim,

Art says it better than I could, but here's my take on the whole TIC thing. Will this study change the way we do our size up, answer is yes, it already has changed mine. Our TIC is only a tool in our big toolbox. We must learn the good and bad points of all the tools we carry in big yellow engine companies, I know we should leave them in the sun, so they can ripen. We need to use the correct tool or tools to be effective. I firmly believe no one tool is going to enable me to make the perfect size-up. We must use everything we have to make the best size-up, for the citizens, but most of all for ourselves, so we all go home to our families after our shift

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 17, 2008 at 11:16pm

Jeff,

After they ripen, paint the tops black and then you will be all set.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Clayton on December 18, 2008 at 8:36am

Jim,

I agree with Jeff and Art. The TIC is another tool in the big red toolbox. It doesn't, and can't, replace a well trained, experience fire officer doing a size-up. For me to comment much further would just be repeating their posts.

We need to constantly train on the use of the TIC to keep sharp on the images we are receiving. The quality of the TIC, name brand, number of pixels, etc doesn't matter if the person behind it doesn't know what their looking at.

I found the video very interesting, and another eye-opener to the danger with these engineered products. Thanks.

Jeff

Permalink Reply by Brian Arnold on December 18, 2008 at 11:15am

Jim, Art, Jeff and the rest of the group,

The link and video is great. I was fortunate enough to get to see it at FDIC in Ft. Worth and it helps drive home some of the points we teach in a formal TIC class under live fire conditions. This is when we get to practice with our "Tool" out of the box. I think that's where we have lost many points of our teaching; if we only pull the TIC out around the station and look at electric outlets and the stove for heat recognition. Practice with the TIC should be done not only around the station, but also while training in fixed burn facility as well as acquired structures. There is no better teaching tool than to have a TIC class running with an acquired structure Live Burn. This is where you get to see actual conditions that a TIC will come in handy.

Does a yellow engine ever really ripen? I was always taught that when it's Red it's ready and if it turns yellow it may have soured. Sorry Jeff, couldn't resist.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 18, 2008 at 11:24am

Brian,

Correct on two points. Live fire training is the best time to learn the capabilities and limitations of the TIC. Oh, and, yellow trucks...............

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 18, 2008 at 12:08pm

I'm proud of you guys! Throw out the bait and watch 'em grab it..lol, oh how I like fishing. I also agree that live fire training is the best way to train members on a TIC, however, we are very limited, when it comes to live fire. An academy burn tower is good, but not the best. The best thing to do is keep working with your crews, explain the limitations of any tool and keep training.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 18, 2008 at 4:58pm

Well, if it's just another tool, are we depending on it too much to decipher the situation? Is there something else that we're missing?

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 18, 2008 at 5:41pm

Jim,

Some places do depend to much on a TIC, to determine what they have. All of us in good faith, must understand, that no one company officer, member, or tool, is as great as a good well trained company of firefighters and all of their tools, that they are trained on and use properly. The saying of "there is no I in team" applies here. The best tool any of us have is the one between our ears.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 18, 2008 at 10:52pm

-Jim, to specifically answer your question; the answer is no the video will not change our on scene size up simply because we do not rely on a TIC that heavily during size up.
-The TIC is a tool, not the end all be all magic wand for the fire service. The TIC does not negate good sound tactics and procedures. It is a tool with specific uses, applications and limitations.
-The trick is to know your tools and what they can and cannot do.
-Interestingly enough many firefighters know more about the circular saw or Halligan bar then they do the TIC. Complete knowledge of along with proper use of tools is a must.
-We have thermal imaging cameras and we do use them. Because Albuquerque, like many larger cities, has budgetary issues, we do not have a lot of TICs available nor are they small user friendly items and these features naturally limit the application of the TIC.
-Most of the TIC usage with the AFD is during overhaul as well as looking for hotspots during alarm activations or for smoke calls. The specific size, type and number of TICs we have severely limit their use during a search phase of the firefight.
-When using the TIC we teach our members during the Academy that the TIC is a tool not a magic wand nor is it a substitute for Superman's eyes. Knowledge, education and correct application of the tool is imperative. A TIC cannot see through walls or under blankets or even through water or glass. Knowing the limitations of the tool allows for the tool to be used more correctly and to it's fullest advantage.
-Stay safe

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 18, 2008 at 11:04pm

Yes... I believe that firefighters today are a little to easily impressed with electronic techno gadgets and depend on the TIC entirely too much at the expense of and to the detriment of basic procedures, tactics and fundamental firefighting.
-Any tool can fail on the fireground, especially little, battery operated devices like the TIC. Remember, Mr Murphy is always on the job; he never calls in sick.
-The solution is knowing how to perform basic searches and size up while implementing tools like the TIC in their limited, specific capacity.
-Stay safe
BRICK

Jim Mason said:

Well, if it's just another tool, are we depending on it too much to decipher the situation? Is there something else that we're missing?

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on December 19, 2008 at 10:26am

Hey all,

I think that TICs are under utilized! Why, because ffs do not take the time to figure out how to use them and in what situations they can or cannot be used, so they leave them on the rig until it is overhaul time. Yes, overhaul is an important time to use the TIC, but unless you have trained with it, used it on calls and know it like the back of your hand you will probably do more damage then needed during this phase by opening everything that "looks" hot when your hand is hotter than what you are looking at. Many folks would even be challenged to tell me what kind of TIC they have on their rig right now without looking.

Just like any other TOOL we have in the fire service a TIC is just that a TOOL. They are not meant to be the end all save all we're going to strap this to our face and never look back life saver. The TIC was never meant to replace good basic firefighting skills, but we all have seen where this is going. Newer ffs have to rely on the TIC because they don't have the basic skills. You cannot replace good firefighting with a piece of equipment, it has been attempted many times over the years all with the same result...BASIC FIREFIGHTING IS KING!! 360s, observing conditions and reading the fire builidng along with good TIC use are the ways to conduct a proper size-up.

And for Jim's second question...Are we relying on TICs too much? Of course! There are folks that treat the TIC as a Magic 8 Ball and it will answer every question they have, but how does this replace Common Sense Firefighting?

Piep

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