Trick Size Up Problem

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joe Heim on December 15, 2008 at 10:10pm

Conduct a walk around, utilize a TIC and do the six sided look around the room, 4 walls, the ceiling and the floor to see how much heat is around, above, and below you. Sound the floor as you go, and the biggest thing is Preplan your first due and see what remodeling is going on and also what new construction is being done.

Permalink Reply by Marty Mayes on December 15, 2008 at 10:30pm

This is a tricky size-up at best. I use to rely on the light brown color of smoke to identify when natural fibers, IE wood were on fire. It was not my only size-up tool but it was a piece of the puzzle. When I saw brown or light tan smoke, I assumed anti-gravity devices were on fire and would attack accordingly.But now when I watch this kind of manufactured wood trusses burn, I see the glues burning, producing the darker smoke. My old assesment tool is now flawed, that dark smoke is not always an indication of room and contents burning. I remember when the light wieght wood truss roof was our new big enemy on the block. Soon it was a standard practice to pull ceiling and assess the roof's condition before working under it.Maybe we should look at similiar techniques for the floors. Although they pose a more significant issue for a quick breach and look assesment.I have recenlty considered even using a version of a piercing nozzle to make a quick stab and suppresion when working over a fire. Whatever we decide to do, I hope we can remain balanced in our approach. Too many times these new issues swing us from one extreme to another. It would be easy to say,"let's not enter such a building!" But we all know that truly is not the answer. We will continue to attack fires even when we know the extreme outcomes, so as long as we are honest about that fact, we can find ways to defeat te new monsters of construction. Long term I hope we support the residential sprinkler systems initiatives. I would like to see us push for these to be in place in not only resident compartments but in the roofs, trusses and failure points we see at fires. I look forward to hearing everyone's size-up because as you have read, I am not sure how to make the disticntion myself right now.

Permalink Reply by Joe McClelland on December 15, 2008 at 10:47pm

When I teach a class, I always stress the intense training and knowledge retention of fire beh and building const. Now a days you can never be to sure, unless you see it going up or see the remodel. The town I work in is a very old town, so you think it should be all true lumber, but who really knows for sure. The town I live in is a booming town with tons of new construction. Those guys for sure are getting the lightweight stuff. Your walk around will still show most of the same smoke colors due to possible non-envolvement of the lightweight stuff yet. A TIC will show where the heat is maybe, but if it is a good working fire, a large portion of the house may be showing hot. And the troops are probably not even in there yet. That is the killer, TIME. A fast knock, common sense, is for sure needed. We need to get the boys and girls in there quick to find it and then hit it. All fires need this due to we never know what is under or over us. We must hit it hard before time kills us.

The video says 15 min of flame contact caused the failure. Not a lot of time in reality. I guess the morale is, we just don't know. Get in-get out, get on-get off. Hope this made a little sense.

Stay safe brothers and sisters.
Joe

Permalink Reply by Nick Morgan on December 16, 2008 at 12:58am

It seems lightweight construction keeps becoming worse and worse as far as firefighter safety is concerned! I always emphasize to new recruits about the absolute necessity of learning about fire behavior and building construction; as well as staying current with new trends on construction materials. Though we still have to make interior attacks on fires when there is a high probability of human life in danger, or the possibility of saving valuable property, the days of "cowboy" firefighting where we run into every building regardless of it's status as occupied or vacant must come to an end. I'm a member of a department that prides itself as "an aggressive interior fire attack department". Well, that certainly has it's place, but I think it's time we seek to become an aggressive yet safer and saner fire department in regard to our structural fire tactics. Defensive firefighting is also a form of "aggressive" firefighting when exposed properties are protected and firefighters are not exposed to needless risk to their lives.
My perspective on this new threat to firefighter's lives is rather simple: First, companies MUST go out and survey their first due areas as a minimum. We have to look at our current buildings and keep abreast of the new buildings going up in our districts all the time. Second, we need to stay aware of the latest trends in building construction methods and materials. Just when we think we've "seen it all", along comes something new and possibly more dangerous. Third, we need to learn from the experiences of others. When other FD's experience a LODD or a "near miss" due to these kinds of materials, we all need to take notice and seek ways to not let this happen in our own departments. Fourth and finally, we have to survey our first due areas for rehab work in older construction. This is ESPECIALLY TRUE in the older urban cities! On my own block I can point out several houses that have been remodled, had a second floor or new roof assembly added on within the past 3 years. When I was in one of our busier districts, I noticed many older single and multiple family homes and apartment buildings undergoing rehabilitation. We can't use the old "20 minute rule" any longer. What we don't know CAN hurt or kill us! We can't always determine these problems in time, nor can we always recognize them even with good size-up procedures, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do everything we can to know as much as possible about the buildings we may be called to respond to at any given time! We can't control all of the variables at every fire, but we can control our tactics and our actions, so let's control what we can. As the late, great Francis Brannigan always said: "Know your enemy; the building is your enemy!"
Take care and Merry Christmas brothers and sisters. And most of all, Stay Safe out there!

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 16, 2008 at 11:04am

We need to be proactive in our first due areas when appoaching any type of residential structure fire. It is the age of lightweight everything. A good 360 is a must, but we must know our area. Where I'm at I have the opportunity to talk to the Fire Marshal and find out what remodling is going on, at least with a permit. I spoke with my brother, who is an architect, his words decribing this lightweight construction, I live by. He said that many of the builders, build so homeowners can get out, not for firefighters to be inside. These engineered truss floors can fail, just as we start inside.

Stay Say,
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 16, 2008 at 3:59pm

Joe and the rest of the gang,

As others have pointed-out, this is a very common practice in areas undergoing tear downs and partial tear downs. In Cook County, the tax laws will often lead to this type of remodel. The builder may leave a wall or two of the original structure and rebuild from there. Then, it is technically not a "new" structure and avoids new construction tax rates. Engineered wood systems are very common in our older neighborhoods that are "turning over".

The 360 is always critical and knowing your district, really all of these comments are valid. However, I wanted to pick-up on your TIC comment. As with other tools, the capabilities and limitations have to be kept in mind. Remember, the TIC will only read surface temps, it cannot tell you what is happening below the floor or behind a wall. If you are careful and take your time with the TIC, you will likely be able to pick-up other signs such as heat pushing through floor vents etc.

Most flooring systems are finished with hardwood, tile or carpet. These finishing materials provide enough of a thermal barrier as to conceal what is happening beneath the floor. UL has tested engineered lumber flooring systems and found that you could have temps below the floor in excess of 1200 degrees and flooring surface temperature of less than 90 degrees. This could create a false sense of security if members don’t keep in mind that TICs are limited to reading surface temperatures only. They could make entry with a significant fire below and if they incorrectly relied on their TIC to assess the conditions below, they could put themselves in harms way.

Underwriters Laboratories has created their UL University as a new online learning tool. You can visit the site at: http://www.uluniversity.us/home.aspx follow the Fire online link to Structural Stability of Engineered Lumber in Fire Conditions to go through their training program that is directly related to this discussion.

As usual, the members of this group have posted excellent thoughts and a “common sense” approach to the question.

Permalink Reply by Jeffrey L. Broombaugh on December 16, 2008 at 8:48pm

Nick,
Your third point is very important fact to remember. "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." We are committing a disservice to the people we serve and serve with if we do not learn from others mistakes or misfortunes. We should be reading the LODD and near miss reports to learn and reduce the chance that we will make the same mistake.

Nick Morgan said:

It seems lightweight construction keeps becoming worse and worse as far as firefighter safety is concerned! I always emphasize to new recruits about the absolute necessity of learning about fire behavior and building construction; as well as staying current with new trends on construction materials. Though we still have to make interior attacks on fires when there is a high probability of human life in danger, or the possibility of saving valuable property, the days of "cowboy" firefighting where we run into every building regardless of it's status as occupied or vacant must come to an end. I'm a member of a department that prides itself as "an aggressive interior fire attack department". Well, that certainly has it's place, but I think it's time we seek to become an aggressive yet safer and saner fire department in regard to our structural fire tactics. Defensive firefighting is also a form of "aggressive" firefighting when exposed properties are protected and firefighters are not exposed to needless risk to their lives.
My perspective on this new threat to firefighter's lives is rather simple: First, companies MUST go out and survey their first due areas as a minimum. We have to look at our current buildings and keep abreast of the new buildings going up in our districts all the time. Second, we need to stay aware of the latest trends in building construction methods and materials. Just when we think we've "seen it all", along comes something new and possibly more dangerous. Third, we need to learn from the experiences of others. When other FD's experience a LODD or a "near miss" due to these kinds of materials, we all need to take notice and seek ways to not let this happen in our own departments. Fourth and finally, we have to survey our first due areas for rehab work in older construction. This is ESPECIALLY TRUE in the older urban cities! On my own block I can point out several houses that have been remodled, had a second floor or new roof assembly added on within the past 3 years. When I was in one of our busier districts, I noticed many older single and multiple family homes and apartment buildings undergoing rehabilitation. We can't use the old "20 minute rule" any longer. What we don't know CAN hurt or kill us! We can't always determine these problems in time, nor can we always recognize them even with good size-up procedures, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do everything we can to know as much as possible about the buildings we may be called to respond to at any given time! We can't control all of the variables at every fire, but we can control our tactics and our actions, so let's control what we can. As the late, great Francis Brannigan always said: "Know your enemy; the building is your enemy!"
Take care and Merry Christmas brothers and sisters. And most of all, Stay Safe out there!

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on December 16, 2008 at 9:56pm

Art,

It is funny how you talk about the carpeting and flooring laid over these lightweight floors. About a year ago our department had a basement fire and luckily enough there was enough room to get into the structure and down the stairs without having to traverse over the fire area on the main floor. Our guys put the fire out and ventilated the structure. Once the structure was clear crews were going to do some mop up and saw the carpet over the fire area sagging. Come to find that the only thing holding the contents of the main floor were the carpet tacks around the edges as the floor was totally burned out.

I agree that using the TIC is a good thing, but it is not an xray. It will tell you that there is heat below you, but will not give you any indications that the floor may be burned out. When going into the rehab areas you have to figure that every house has been redone, whether it has or not, and that they were all rehabed with lightweight construction. A weekly or even every other week drive around your still area should give you an idea who is doing what.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 16, 2008 at 10:33pm

Chris,

I agree with your point to assume lightweight components is the best approach in areas undergoing alot of rehabbing or tear-downs. Expect the worst.

Regarding the TIC, you MAY be able to tell there is heat below; however, even with under floor temps of 1000 degrees, the surface temp of 3/4" hardwood floors was around 76 degrees during the UL tests. My point was, not to depend on the TIC to provide information that is is not capable of providing.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 17, 2008 at 8:18pm

Thanks for the UL link, Art. I was going to do this as I was reading this thread. Doing the preplans and using the TIC can help, but I think we need to go a bit farther with it. Consider truss in three situations , all concerning the status of the fire building (residential only)

Is the buidling new - built since your town has started to allow Light weight frame construction

Is there added floor space to the original design - We only build a couple of different types of structres any more - Lt Wt frame and dimensional lumber (termed "Legacy Lumber", in the UL studies) there wil not be balloon, ordinary, heavy timber, or post and beam construction any more in residential

Is it in the "Rehab Zone"? This is an area were OLD, REALLY OLD junk buildings are being rehhabed into newer looking buildings by people with lots of money. Anything in this area should be considered truss constuction and should be approached as such with all the tricks of your dept's procedures

The fire buidling will fall into one of these three catagories if the reponse area is familiar to the FF's working there.

The TIC's are not going to be much help in identifiying truss in buildings unless there is FF investigation of the building in several sides, ie - pulling ceiling and several levels, ie - basement, first floor, etc... If we can;t see the ceiling we pulled with the naked eye, by using the TIC we can see if there is truss inside the structure and fire in th those trusses.

Art Zern said:

Chris,

I agree with your point to assume lightweight components is the best approach in areas undergoing alot of rehabbing or tear-downs. Expect the worst.

Regarding the TIC, you MAY be able to tell there is heat below; however, even with under floor temps of 1000 degrees, the surface temp of 3/4" hardwood floors was around 76 degrees during the UL tests. My point was, not to depend on the TIC to provide information that is is not capable of providing.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 17, 2008 at 8:23pm

Jim,

Again, a good common sense approach. I like the three situations you discussed. When in doubt, proceed with caution while "ruling-out" engineered wood systems.

Permalink Reply by Nick Morgan on December 18, 2008 at 4:30pm

Jim and the gang,
I have one other thought about checking for lightweight building components during a fire in a rehab; Always remember that when an old building is rehabbed, usually a new lightweight ceiling is installed under the original ceiling, and rarely, if ever, is the original ceiling fremoved first. We've encountered this in numerous fires in rehabbed buildings, where crews were "pulling ceilings" and not finding the fire that was rolling over their heads because they didn't realize they were only pulling the new ceilings! The original lath/plaster or tin-covered ceilings in these older urban buildings range from 10 to 12 feet high. When a new ceiling is installed, either drywall or suspended ceiling tiles, they're usually only 8' in residential buildings. We have to make sure we've truly openned BOTH ceilings, especially to expose new lightweight building materials hidden above.

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page