Question on Ithe Initial Fire Ground Size Up

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 21, 2008 at 3:50pm

I can tell that you have been doing this for a while. Comparing the sides to each other is a big help, if you can get around to the other sides. It helps to determine both the location and extent of the fire and any occupany changes which will often show up as renovations. We often find that renvovations will change the floor plan from what it used to be and that can have a terrible affect on firefighter orientation inside the building. Communciations is also huge for the first companies to perform. It's always good to report on the radio what is found, what the first company is going to do and what help from other units does the first unit need. It seems that many departments don;t have any first due radio reporting policy or ideas that they use. This first due radio report also helps the other- still responding units to continue their size up while enroute
Thanks Joe

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 21, 2008 at 3:59pm

You are absolutely right Chris. There is often no way to tell what a private dwelling has had done to it and that can be dangerous. Here is what I tell guys on my job (and by the way we have thousands of floor plan changes all over the city). Always use every response to get to learn the floor plans inside these buildings of the response district. Memorize them for your safety and the safety of the other FF's on your job. Then when something is different from the usual set up, call it out on the radio so everyone will know. This can really be a life saver for the other members of your department. In the past FF's have died in closets so understanding that we are dealing with a different floor plan can save our brothers and sisters lives. It's a simple and effective way to prevent injuries or deaths
Thanks for the response Chris, glad to have you

Permalink Reply by Frank Ricci on October 21, 2008 at 6:52pm

What about changing the mindset right away? I was taught RECEO, COAL was WEALTH, etc. What about looking at from this point of view.

FIREGROUND PRIORITIES
Forcible Entry
Forcible Exit
Ventilation
Attack
Search/Rescue
Back-up Line

If you establish RIT/RIC and you have limited manpower and the situation is not going well which of the above fireground priorities are you willing to give up to establish RIT/RIC?

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 21, 2008 at 8:08pm

Frank Thanks for joining us.
Limited manning and fire situations going sour often go hand in hand. The establishing of a RIT in this siutation is good because we can expect to need them. But is there another option here? Can we or should we pull them all out? Are there any other people alive inside other than our FF's?

I know the fire service usually stops the truck (support) work when we are short on FF's but does this actually cause the mayday situation to begin with? If we trace it back to the start of the chain we might find it does. So the question is this; Does establishing the RIT make the situation better or does the having the RIT perform some venting or pull another hose line with the escalation of the alarm the better way to go? Will the calvary come in time to be of help?
I like what Chief Joe Heim does with all his officers. They are allowed to request an extra alarm before they arrive to the scene if they think it is the right thing to do. They can always send the extra guys home.
When I was studying for LT. We went through senarios like this. The guys that taught me said to decide things based on two factors: Is what we are going to do "justified and reasonable" ? What do we know right now, what do we see and what will happen in the next five minutes?

Permalink Reply by Brenda Tenney on October 22, 2008 at 9:58am

Before we leave the station,we size up,if we don't have time,we each have a set of key numbers,one is left on the fire truck,one is on our helmet. But,we make sure we size up the scene before we go near it,or in it. If we did not size up and scene ,I believe we would have some lives on our hands...Maybe I can add more,and better information later.Thanks Brenda

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on October 27, 2008 at 2:09pm

I think some of the size up points you should consider is building construction, occupany and number of people you have. With new construction you have all of the hazards associated with lightwieght trusses and the like. Depending how far advanced the fire is will be a major problem. The rehab construction is something I think we really need to start worrying about. You are going to start finding a lot of the new construction materials in the 60-70 year old homes. They are the sleepers. I think you need to look at the building to see if the windows are new, is there a dormer that none of the other houses on the block has,etc.
Depending if a building is occupied or vacant should dictate whether or not you are aggressive or not. Risk a lot to gain a lot, Risk a little to gain a little. I think some times we want to be over aggressive on that abandoned house. This is were knowing your still will help.
There is only so much you can do with minimal manpower. If you don't have the manpower, you should not overextend yourself. How many NIOSH reports that list manpower do we need to read before we get it?

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 7, 2008 at 2:20pm

We have alot of buildings that are 100 years old or more that have had truss placed in them. I think there is 3 reasons during our size up when we should consider truss constrction
New buildings constructed after about the late 1980's
Addtional floor space added to the original floor plan (the addition could have truss)
Any building in the Rehab zone (this is a poor section of town that is now trendy to live in)

What do you guys do if you arrive on the scene of a building that may have truss inside?

I also think we are too aggresvie on buildings that will be torn down after the fire occurs.

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on November 8, 2008 at 10:24am

To tell you the truth I don't know what we do. I would think it would be smart to announce it over the radio, as soon it is found.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 9, 2008 at 1:33pm

Frank and Jim,

Perhaps a little further explanation is in order. RECEO or RECEO VS is generally used as a strategy prompt.
R - Rescue
E - Exposures
C - Confinement
E - Extinguishment
V - Ventilation
S - Salvage

This acronym can be used by Incident Commanders or initial arriving officers to assist in determining a strategy and prioritizing strategic issues. It is often mistakenly seen as a tactical prompt or initial size-up tool, which it is not.

Let me explain; Strategy is the overall plan that will be used to control the incident.
Strategies are broad in nature and are achieved by the completion of tactics. and tasks.

Tactics, on the other hand, are the specific operations that must be accomplished to achieve the strategies. Tactics must be both specific and measurable.

As the IC begins to develop his/her initial strategy, an evaluation (size-up) must be made to determine the strategic priorities. If Rescue is determined to be the most pressing issue and therefore the highest Strategic priority, then all tactics selected must support Rescue as the Strategic priority. This may mean stretching the initial hoseline to protect the interior stairs and placing the line between the fire and occupants. It may also mean venting for life along with an aggressive primary search. These are all tactics and tasks that support the Strategic priority of Rescue.

When RECEO VS is seen as a Tactical prompt, the IC may mistakenly see a primery search as the tactical priority when in fact, an aggressive, coordinated fire attack along with ventilation may be the best initial tactic.

RECEO VS should be used as a Strategic prompt to determine the incident’s Strategic priorities. Then, all tactics and tasks selected should, at least initially, support the Strategic priority.

Art

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 10, 2008 at 8:12pm

Yeah Jim
Anouncing it on the radio would be a good thing. Maybe even addressing the radio transmission to the IC who should acknowledge it. This way the report of truss won't go unheard and everyone will hear it. I always think that the first one to see it should say something for all to hear. Does your dept allow you to communicate directly to the IC or just to your officer?

Permalink Reply by Brenda Tenney on November 10, 2008 at 8:53pm

Jim,I went to and scene not to long ago ,structure fire.The house was built around 1914,Am talking about when they made homes out of fat ladder wood.The house went up in huge flames in no time. The house was being ,under new structure ,no electricity. This was and arson fire..I was second on the scene ,no way could no one go in,that is how bad this fire was.
I lived only one block away,the fire started around 12:15,at night,we worked though the night,around 4 in the morning ,we got the fire out..,this was and huge old house,Yes,we had and size up.,,the thing about old ,old homes is,they burn in such a fury flames,the fire fighters could not get that close to the structure..We had 3 fire dept there.,
I think our fire department sized up the scene as best as we could,from the four corners of the structure ,of the home..
That i mean,we knew how many men,woman from our dept, was at the scene,what was coming down..and going on.
We stayed at the scene until investigators got their...

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on November 10, 2008 at 9:52pm

Buildings that you know are of truss construction should be immediately communicated to command predicated by urgent traffic. The traffic should be something like....Urgent, Urgent, Urgent, command this is Ladder 32 with urgent traffic (command answers, Ladder 32 go ahead with your urgent traffic) Command be advised that this is a truss built building, repeat this is a truss built building. As this is going out to the IC all with a radio should be listening as well.

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