Search Priorites

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on February 4, 2009 at 4:43pm

The way i look at it is that whenever you are responding to a reported structure fire you have to assume that there will be people inside the structure no matter if it is boarded up, day, night or whatnot. You find folks all the time who say I am not sending my guys into a boarded up structure because there is probably nobody in there...WRONG!! Especially in todays economy where people are hit hard with foreclosures and losing housing due to loss of jobs. People who are in these places leave them boarded up and show little sign on the outside that they are there because they dont want anyone to know that they are there. The longer you can hideout the longer you get a roof over your head.

As for preparing to search it all goes back to what type of still district you are working in? Do you know the joints around you and how they are laid out? Have you been inside them to see what kinds of hazards are around and where the folks probably spend most of their time? Chances are that most of the residences are laid out in a similar fashion in each neighborhood. Medical runs, food on the stove runs and pretty much any other run into these area will give you a good idea at where and how to start your search. There are some definite limiting factors such as location and extent of fire, but all this does is put the start of the search in a different location.

Once you know the layout of these buildings it is very easy to run practice scenarios. Either with pictures or standing out in front of one of the buildings. Take a look at the building and start asking members of your crew where the different areas of the buildings are. Residential structures are pretty easy, a fireman with a couple of years on should easily be able to stand out in front of the house and tell you where the major portions of the building are, i.e. kitchen, living area, sleeping area. Commercial buildings are a little difficult unless you have actually been inside of them, but the size can tell you the type of search that you need and the name on the outside of the commercial structure can tell you a lot as well.

Permalink Reply by Brenda Tenney on February 4, 2009 at 7:12pm

I agree with you Chris,we had and structure fire,the guy came out the back door.The fire fighters sized up the scene,before they started do their thing,No one else was in the house,But,many vacant homes have homeless people inside,we do have to make sure no one is in those homes,We check sides ,front and back..Our team goes in,two at and time,we keep tags ,with their FD number on it,to know who is in that burning building. Those tags lets us know someone is in,a structure fire.
and who they are. Just thought i would give a little input.Brenda

Permalink Reply by Tom Hofland on February 4, 2009 at 10:53pm

Are there any vacant structure fires - not until we prove it, dilapidated buildings are just harder and may not allow as long to work. That being said a sane safe search which is extended as aggressively as supporting manpower (tactics) permits is in order. The search should be directed at saving the most lives not crawling around in the smoke. The marshaling of resources for life safety becomes dependent on occupancy type.

A commercial structure (without specific information on a victim) will not permit a search team to cover any real ground in a timely manner (rescues not recovery) or be effective in even moderate smoke. These same buildings, however, tend to have large open spaces and tall ceilings which allows for aggressive (vertical) ventilation to create survivable air space at the floor. As a result the search priority is on locating the fire, removing smoke, and then finding the occupants. Given the wide open layout of commercial establishments RASP rope assisted search procedures are indicated.

Preparing a commercial search team takes a department wide effort. If I didnt have a plan and practice I would not lead a company into this scenario. The team can operate with as few as two but covering ground is challenging a four man company will pay dividends. The basic equipment should include rope, TIC, irons, hook, emergency air supply potentially, and known, planned, rapid support by the IC/SOPS directing aggressive forcible exiting, portal lighting, and ventilation in addition to basic fire fighting.

Multiple dwellings expose many potential victims and triage of our efforts is critical. Our job is to save the most citizens not recover the corpse or critically injured body of the most threatened person. While this is tough it is why we get paid. Locating and confining the fire so that we protect other apartment units, and egress routes is the number one mission of the search team. Clearing the egress routes of smoke and heat is the next priority, followed by an aggressive search of the fire unit.

Preparing for a MD search necessitates discipline, an understanding of fire behavior, and a competent officer and firefighter. The use of doors to confine the fire or protect the search often leads to brief separation of the search team and a sense of being "locked in" with the fire. Both members have to know what they're doing, what actions will limit fire growth and which will increase the heat release rate. Minimum team tool assignment (for me) is the can, irons, HFT, TIC, hook, and rex tool.

SFR's

Our viable victims are in three locations (fire room is not viable unless the fire is SMALL): bedroom, path leading from the bedroom to the exit, within 5 feet of an alternate exit. These locations should be searched as quickly as possible and covered by SOP.

An engine company is almost always first due at SFRs. The line will go through the front door to the fire. This will locate victims between the fire and the exit and protect the stairs or hallway leading to the bedrooms. The first truck will split. VES bedrooms (outside team) and make the stairs or hallway for an interior search of the bedrooms. The outside team should also pop that back door and sweep it. The second due truck does it too. If the fire is severe and an interior search is not gong to be rapid the outside team cuts a h*** in the roof and the inside team VES the bedrooms. Its about the bedrooms.

(assuming a 1 1/2 story or greater)
The inside team (with officer) will throw a ladder to side A, and bring the irons, hook, TIC, and rex tool, the cans a nice touch if you have the manpower but the ladder is more critical.

the outside team (VES) will take 2 ladders, a roof hook, inside hook, 2 halligans, and a chain saw (perhaps the force saw if the structure is heavily barred. This will allow a move to vertical ventilation if needed.

Again SOPs... If you don't have department policy what do you do if some engine driver from another battalion shows up to ride for the tour. You can't get him to memorize everything at roll call, let alone become marginally proficient.

T

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on February 5, 2009 at 12:04am

A pet peeve of mine; when a firefighter doesn't carry a tool to the building
A close second pet peeve; when a firefighter carries a Halligan without the striking tool with it, we call them Iron(s) for a reason. At least have your partner carry the flathead.

I really like the companies that have pre assignments for the crew as to which tool they are to bring with them depending on the assignment. That goes a long way towards efficiency. Trips back to the rig are sometimes unavoidable but are many times unecessary.

I've seen lots of vacant buildings but I only knew they were vacant when I got an "All Clear" on the secondary search. It's like Dave said, someone started the fire.

And to reiterate what Chris said, the better we know our area, the more likely we'll know if the structure is sound or if transits are squating there. I will also say if I knew the structure to be unstable, I would be leery of going for an interior attack but that fire, especially at first, the front side was clear, the fire was at the rear of the structure. We may have less then a minute of visibility, and we may not get the entire structure searched, but we'd do what we could for as long as we could. Once I saw visibility go to nil, I would likely hold the guys back until they could at least regain some ability to navigate. i'd do this because of the likelyhood of floor furnace removal (Large h*** in the floor) Rotten stairs, bad banisters, etc.

One last pet peeve; Drivers taking an eternity to get water to the lines. That causes me to lose my religion.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on February 5, 2009 at 7:05pm

All of you at right on the nose with this. I was taught that a structure was clear, when we say it's clear. We make the call, not the police or whoever. Whether the seach is done in the first 5 minutes or when the fire is out, depends on % of involvement when the first due company arrives, but every structure gets searched. The company did a good job, cover your basis.

Mike, I totally agree about the tools and the water issue, but Brother, that pink thing made you lose your religion..lol

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on February 5, 2009 at 7:28pm

I think Chris brings up the crux of the matter. It's just like the brother from Detroit who died earlier in the year at a vacant house. It crosses all of our minds when one of ours gets hurt or killed fighting a fire at a structure that is supposed to be empty. I know that sometimes the homeless will use a vacant structure to get out of the cold but often times they are using it for all kinds of unlawful behavior or drug dealers take open up shop in these structures. To many the justification exists that we shouldn't kill a good man or woman to save the life of another who breaking the law. Like the brothers we lost in Worchester at the so called abandoned cold storage plant. I remember being so pissed at the two homeless people who caused the fire. Though it may not make any of us "feel" better but I remind myself that my job entails rescuing people without prejudice. I am not their judge, but I have sworn to protect them.

RFB

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on February 5, 2009 at 11:11pm

-Chris is absolutely correct in his observations. The number one priority for any fire is the preservation of life- period. The acronym for prioritizing actions that we drum into the heads of our new recruits is L.I.P. Life safety, Incident stabilization, Property conservation. Life safety first, foremost and above all.
-Another great point that Chris made that happens to be my biggest per peeve is regarding sending members into an abandoned/derelict structure. The very bottom line on the matter is this; the fire didn't set itself. And barring a lightning strike, someone got inside and caused the fire. Fires in abandoned buildings are caused, more times than not, by human intervention, either by accident or design. Because of this fact, the structure has to be considered occupied.
-Remember, vacant/unoccupied/abandoned structures are homes for the homeless, drug dens for the addicted, playgrounds for kids and gang members and prime locations for clandestine drug labs. In short lots of people. There really is no such thing as a vacant structure in the fire service UNTIL firefighters have performed a search.
-That being said, it should not be implied that we will needlessly endanger firefighter lives in order to search an abandoned/derelict structure. All structures are searched- period. How we search them will depend on the Rescue Profile for the given event; Low, High or Urgent.
-Will V.E.S. be used? Will companies wait for water supply, a hose line to be positioned, ventilation to take place and a R.I.C.? This is all situational dependent.
-It bears repeating that V.E.S. is not a tactic to supplement low staffing but rather an aggressive technique used in an Urgent or High Rescue Profile on a High Target Area. There is specific information involved. (Sorry another pet peeve from a previous discussion)
-The question about how to prepare for the search is open ended and vague enough to be interpreted several different ways.
-Firstly, if you are not mentally and physically prepared at the beginning of the shift to perform a Primary Search and execute a Rescue then find another line of work- end of discussion.
-Arriving on scene all members should be prepared to go to work. That means P.P.E. is on, in place and it is ALL being worn and worn correctly.
-Structure gloves, not work gloves. Having problems with the gloves- tough you need to practice.
-S.C.B.A. is worn with all belts and straps in the proper position and properly sized for you. That means the waist belt as well. Not attaching it and synching it up may look cool but it is a snag hazard, it causes excessive fatigue and is unprofessional.
-Suspenders belong on the shoulders not hanging down below. Don't have suspenders? "I don't need/like them." To bad. Get some. The gear is intended to be worn with suspenders attached and on the shoulders.
-Tool selection. A search team should have full P.P.E., flashlights and radios at a minimum- NO EXCEPTIONS. They must also carry the Irons, a six foot hook and the Can (2.5 gallon, pressurized water extinguisher) Bring a T.I.C. if it is available.
-All members must be equipped with a personal escape system. The only exception to this is a blatant excuse. Carry escape gear. Chief Norman's Rule, "Never place yourself in a position in which you are totally dependent on someone getting YOU out". Escape gear is not a secondary means of egress; it is a last resort. Therefor, firefighters must have secondary escape routes, additional ladders in place and areas of refuge staked out. Seem like a lot? It sure is but that is PROFESSIONAL search work.
-All members must be proficient in rescue techniques for conscious and unconscious victims, utilizing carries and drags, when to know the difference in application and how to perform ladder rescues of conscious and unconscious victims down both ground ladders and aerials, which are an entirely separate discipline.
-Lastly, all firefighters must be conscious of the air supply. Running out of air is for amateurs. All members must be cognizant of their air supply, the half way point and if they have enough of air to get themselves out of the I.D.L.H. and/or if they have enough air left to perform a rescue and which path that rescue will take.
-There is a romantic notion within the fire service about search and rescue. So much so that the term is used constantly when in point of fact it is two separate and distinct job descriptions and functions.
-Search is the act of looking for something. That something is trapped victims first and foremost. But firefighters are also performing a reconnaissance mission for the IC and should be reporting the interior conditions, needs and tenability.
-Rescue is the heroic end result of a disciplined and professionally executed search and the physical act of removing a victim to an area of safety. That safety may be an area of refuge, it may be two floors below the fire or it may be (usually) ultimate safety- outside the structure.
-Performing a professional search and carrying out a proper rescue are things that do not just happen. They require training, professionalism and disciple. Unfortunately far to many firefighters think they know how to do this stuff and they really don't. Fire death tolls every year are a testament to that fact. "I have ten years on the job; I know how to do that. I know what I'm doin' " What this person should be saying is that he really has one year of experience ten times.... because he just isn't getting it.
-Train hard, train real and BE A THINKING FIREFIGHTER AND NOT A REACTING ONE.
KTF

Permalink Reply by Mark Langston on February 5, 2009 at 11:43pm

How does a Team prepare to do an effective search?

This can only be done before a fire with training. The time to decide how to do a search shouldn't be at the front door of the structure that is on fire. I want my crew to know what I expect as far as search and how we are going to mostly go about doing it. I like doing oriented searches where I stay in the hall and sends guys off into rooms. My crew needs to know this. We should practice in acquired structures if at all possible doing oriented searches, right/left hand search patterns, VES of a second floor, etc... That way everyone is on the same page when you do a search in an actual fire.


Are there really any vacant structure fires?

The answer to this is yes, but we don't know if they are vacant or not on arrival. A first arriving officer should be asking occupants that are out of the building if everyone is out and relay that info to other incoming units, but the structure still needs to be searched. And actually every structure fire is occupied once we enter the building we become a life hazard also. A company needs to be aware of his crew's safety while operating in a building especially a vacant condemned building. I think the real question should be is this fire savable or unsavable? If there is not a possible savable life in the room due to fire etc... then you are not going to search that area or the building at all.

Permalink Reply by Chris Fleming on February 6, 2009 at 6:40pm

Unfortunately, I'm at work and haven't seen the video but I've read some of the comments and agree with alot of what has been said. I agree the building isn't vacant until we say it's vacant and I'm a big believer in the sanctity of the incident priorities of life safety, incident stabilization and property conservation. However, we do have to realize that firefighters are a part of the life safety equation. Yes, we are better equiped, trained, etc. but stuff can still go wrong and bite us. Size up is part of figuring out the ammount of risk firefighters should take in dealing with an emergency. Part of that size up is trying to figure out if there is a reasonable chance for occupants to be in the building and what the survivability profile is for those unprotected occupants. These are some real gut check kind of decisions that have to be made. Some things that can help guide our decision making are knowing your district, doing a complete 360 size up when possible, and defining what your department considers a "Known life hazard". A few years ago my department did a city wide survey of abandoned buildings to determine their suitability for interior ops. We placarded buildings in green, yellow, and red. These were not in stone rules, but prompts to help the I.C. make some decisions. During the survey, you could tell the buildings that people were "squatting" in and we boarded them up as we were able. This kind of program has to be updated frequently, especially in this economy, but a few hours of cruising around your district can help you do a windshield survey. Firefighter injuries and deaths in "vacant" buildings are truly tragic and one of those "red flag" types of calls that we should be very careful around. Stay safe and keep a thought and a prayer for the brothers in S.F.

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on February 6, 2009 at 10:25pm

The team prepares by tabletopping scenerios, practicing in full PPE and discussing different structures while out on the EMS calls. Get the whole team asking "what are WE going to do if.....". Standing at the front door isn't the time to 'discuss' it.

Thinking we know what the other members are thinking is not close to KNOWING what they KNOW.

To the ones that say "it's just a vacant house, we'll cover the exposures so nobody gets hurt", I have to ask, how would you deal with the aftermath of that decision when after the fire is out, a young family that was trying to stay out of the cold was found in the structure and now they're a statistic? I know I would be pretty @$#%*! up in the head.

There really is only one way to know if the stucture is vacant or not and that is for us to search it. The only way for us to search it is to be prepared to search it and know it and accept it if the profile says it's unsurvivable. The only way to be prepared to search and know when to and when not to is doing the work ahead of time.

If the crew is not prepared to put a professional search (thanks Brick) to work at 1000 hrs., they won't be prepared at 0330 hrs. either!

The crew in the video took the risk that gained a reward.

Prepare, prepare, prepare - tivo the movie, sports, american idol or whatever, but be prepared

KTF
Todd

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 13, 2009 at 5:03pm

Again Coordination goes a long way to being a good fire company. These building are much more dangerous than what we would normally expect because the primary search targets are not what you think they will be. Without furnture , the bedrooms are all over the place, with anything but the bathroom being a flop area. The bath tub usually doesn;t leave enough room to lay down unless you're praying to the porcelin idol. (Been there , done that)
These buildings also have a number of dangers not regually found in an occupied building like holes in the path of egress and structural components exposed to the fire because the drywall/ plaster is laying on the floor. This will also provide the fire unusal ways for extension.
When I started in the city, the dept had just completed the first vacant home survey. The battalion were I was assigned had a 1000 vacant homes in it alone, surrounded by other battalions just like where I was working.
In those days, the engines would stretch the first line into the door that had the best access to the fire and not nesassarily to keep the fire from the rest of the building. Since search is is so tied in with extiguishment, do you guys have any thoughts on the intial hose line stretch in these vacants?

Permalink Reply by Joe Heim on February 26, 2009 at 9:19pm

You can't assume that the building is vacant. If we have a structure fire at a vacant building we always try to do a search and knock the fire down. Again it will depend on the extent of the fire and what condition the building was in before the fire started as to our ability to get in and search.

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page