"Senario, What do you do? "

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on January 11, 2009 at 10:10pm

Jim, I'll give this a shot. As for # 1: My initial stretch, would be a 1.75 inch line with the manpower given, off of the closest company to exposure 2B. The fire does not appear to have extended to that exposure yet, but, it's close. More lines will need to be stretched to protect this structure. Make sure command knows I need more help, now not later.

# 2 I'm going to communicate with the company searching the second floor. They need to know the exterior is smoking and extension is getting close, My line would cover the stairs. Firefighters first building second. When the crew finishes on the second floor, cover them while they search the first floor. If that search has been done, call command and hold that company, if possible.

# 3 I would let the IC know we weren't making progress and needed to pull out. Immediately call a MAYDAY, give all the particulars, as I hook my SAV-A-JAKE onto my nozzleman and start out. Hopefully, the RIT team would be immediately activated. I would let the IC know I was trying to extricate my firefighter and myself.Once the RIT showed up, I would have them assist in extricating my firefighter. Once I had my firefighter out and getting treatment,advise command the firefighter was out and on the way to the hospital, take my company out of service, and make notifications to my Chiefs. I could go on, but, I will at home.

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on January 12, 2009 at 11:10am

#1 - Being the 3rd alarm assignment, I would wonder if the other Engine Co.'s had hose to stretch( we don't carry additional 1 3/4, only our pre-connects - working on 1 3/4 hose packs for apt. and other long stretches but that's a different thread...) anyhow, I would have to concider hose from my truck and/or what engine to stretch from. This part I may be overthinking, I just think with the overcrowded street and the chance all pre-connects are already operating somewhere, it may be quicker to go this route. Not wanting to have all eggs in the same basket so to speak, go with seperate water source.

#2 - From the picture it appears the #2 floor is the most at jeopardy and most exposed at the moment. with that said, I would stretch to the #2 floor to protect and assist the search crew. Remove window coverings, open windows on opposite side and hit any fire discovered. The ceiling may be pulled already or need to be soon, the crews will need a line there ready for work. I would suggest getting a line on the exterior of exposure 2/B (if there is not one in place already) to help cool the exterior walls and eaves.

#3 - Try to remain calm! Quick assessment of my nozzleman's situation. MAYDAY with the particulars, get the attention of the search crew for assistance and attempt/begin extrication of nozzleman. Keep IC updated with progress reports.

Permalink Reply by Doug Ott on January 14, 2009 at 12:49am

I haven't contributed much lately so here goes:

#1. If we were capable of using a line off of our truck I would grab the 2". 2-1/2" would be nice if the department we were giving aid to had it, but mobility with 2 guys would probably be an issue.

#2. I'm in agreement with Jeff about protecting the stairs unless the search team thought it necessary to bring it up near them. I would hate to stretch to the 2nd floor and have the fire enter the first floor and cut us off.

#3. If our line wasn't enough to knock the fire back I would consider calling for an additional line or debate on writing off this structure and making a stand in exposure 2C. As far as my nozzleman slumping; I, too would call a MAYDAY but I would take over the nozzle and continue flowing on the fire in order to protect the search crew and my crew. Once they had exited or, ideally, came to assist me in getting my man out would we shut the line down and make our way out.

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on January 15, 2009 at 10:38pm

1 - Coming in on a 3rd I am taking the big line (2 1/2) with me to the second floor.

2 - The first thing I want to do is get to the floor and get the hoseline in place. Once the line is in place I am going to meet up with the officer on the search team (if he hasn't seen me already) and let them know that we are there. Chances are that they will feel a little better doing their search with a hoseline around, especially if they are bumping to the nest floor. I would keep in constant contact with that search team so that if my crew had to back out they are coming with us so they aren't cut off from an escape route.

3 - If my line isn't flowing enough hopefully I would have radioed that to Operations, but once my pipeman goes down I could give a hot less if this building goes to the ground. Me and my crew are doing whatever it takes to get him out of the building. If they send another team to replace us then bring a bigger line!!

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on January 16, 2009 at 6:48pm

All excellant reponses. The third due alarm may be an organized , well thought out operation where every one of the three buildings on scene has a seperate radio channel, safety officer, sector/division chiefs, RIT and dedicated ____________ (fill in the blank with anything else you would normally expect). The thing about it is that the number of WORKING extra alrms that I've been, it's usually a free for all in that there is really little if any command and control. This isn;t a critism the operation but strictly an observation.
When companies are working with handlines in these extra alarm, rather than standing outside in a defensive attack things usually move very quickly. the alrms are comming fast and furious. The difference in the first and third level alarms may be only 3-4 minutes. This kind of operation often happens when there is a stong wind blowing and closely spaced frame housing. The individual building are small enough to be operated inside because they can be taken as individual fires rather than one large commecrcial structure. where the fire forces on scene would be standing around outside waiting for, what has now become "big rubbish", to burn itself out. In fires such as a large commercial building where it has gone into a defensive attack, the issues of command are usually water supply, rehab for the FF's standing around, public information, rig fuel levels, etc...
For the obvious reasons that we are on our own in these rather intense operations, it's important to be able to work as a single company or operation inside a fire building without any outside support. With this in mind, does this change any of you responses? What would you say to the pump operator before you connected to his engine company? What would he have to consider before he allowed your company to connect (as in water supply)? What if when the nozzleman went to the floor the search team wasn;t down from the second floor yet? What would your actions be then?
From the end of the block, could you even depend on there being available hose of your choice on the closest companies? Would you bring a 2 1/2 to 1 3/4 reducer with you if you brought the smaller line from your enigne rather than get it from the closest company? What do you think, guys?

Permalink Reply by Matt Erdman on January 16, 2009 at 7:30pm

Jim, you bring up some excellent points. In my humble opinion, I think an 1 3/4" line would be adequate in the scenario you describe. I really like the idea using a skid load, reduced line lay, etc. in this case and would probably take it off another engine that is preferably NOT being supplied by the same hydrant that is feeding the engine that's supplying the initial interior line. It may not be possible, but check. Maybe coming in later on the alarm, we back in down the street toward the scene, lead off with a reduce line lay off our own engine (this conceiveably be a very long stretch), and my operator reverse lays down the street to the next available hydrant. As I deploy that reduce line lay (with the initial intent of going interior as a back-up line), pull and keep an extra 50' to 75' of 2 1/2" in reserve out in front of the structure. If we ultimately need to go defensive, or as a company we are directed to protect additional exposures, we have the big water readily available -- spin the gated Y off and attach a 2 1/2" fog nozzle retrieved from the closest engine, and we're in business. I like the flexibility the skid load gives me in this scenario.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 3, 2009 at 7:31pm

Ian
Looks like you're ready for the next promtional oral interview!!! Excellant. I don;t have too many questions on that response but of course just one. What does the pump operator need to have in static water reserve to supply your hand line? Sorry I couldn't help it, Budd. By SOP we need to have 10 psi in reserve but the good engineers will allow it to go down to zero but they'll watch it.

We also bring our own hose to these things even if we are half a block down the street becasue we can;t be sure that any close enigne has what we can use. This hose can come off the preconnect or the rear step because we have 1 3/4 there also. I like Marques answer to bring some 2 1/2 with it also. We have these working 3 alarm fires quite a bit in Chgo. Ther are tens of thousands of these 2 1/2 story balloon frames in town. Most of them can be as close as 2-3 feet from each other and most are 2-3 unit aprtment buildings. they have wood read porches as the second means of egress from the rears to the back yard sop they get going good and quick. The write off of the middle building happens qucik in these fires and the attack starts with interior attack and /or protection and search of the two exposures.


Ian Tenney said:

We have a couple of advantages in this type of scenario in that when we are sent as mutual aid, one of the on-duty Chiefs will respond with us. This gives us an additional measure of safety in that our Chief will coordinate with the IC and provide instruction, accountability and supervision for us as we go to work. Also, a mutual aid response will generally be both an engine and truck with a minimum of four members apiece and a Deputy and Aide.

However - here we are with an engine with three members. Unless directed otherwise, I would start off by staging the rig away from the incident so that we could commit it where necessary. After conferring with the IC (and our Deputy if they were assigned to the incident and present), I would clarify a couple of things:

-Do we need to take our own hydrant? (More on that later)
-Who else are we working with right now?
-Who else will be coming to work with us in that building?
-Do we have the ability to communicate with the IC and/or other companies?
-Is there a RIT in place?
-If we're not taking our own hydrant, whose rig are we to take a line off?

With these questions answered, I would fill in the crew as to the plan. If we were taking our own hydrant, we'd be in good position to do so having staged the rig back from the scene. If we're not, we've allowed room for someone else, like a truck company, to get some decent real estate (or as descent as can be for what's left in the area).

Next, we'd have to take a look at the engine company that we've been told to take a line off of, if these were the orders. Can they supply another line and how much water are they already running through their pump? We may need to help out the pump operator by running another line into their pump. Let's make sure that we can communicate via radio with our pump operator, take a couple of hand tools (halligan and hook, most likely) and stretch an 1-3/4 line into the building after taking a quick look at the exterior of the building to start building a mental roadmap. Using a smoothbore pipe, if available, could also make things more economical for the pump operator.

Given that it sounds like things are still evolving at this incident, we should make ourselves as self-sufficient as possible. It would be great to have a truck alongside us to open up as we go, but with two tools, the backup and officer can open up while the pipeman operates the line.

Depending on how confident (and busy) the pump operator appeared in our 30-second conversation, we may choose to have the line charged in the street. This can avert adding more stress on an already overworked chauffeur. If radio communications are spotty or not currently possible with our radios, there needs to be an arrangement with the pump operator to hit the air horn if he or she feels that the exterior picture indicates that we need to get out. We need to coordinate with the company searching upstairs as well, letting them know that there's a charged line in place on the floor below and that they're protected. Whatever conditions we encounter need to be relayed to this unit as how we're faring is going to dictate their moves. Again - if there's a question about the reliability of radio communication, the engine officer needs to take a quick run upstairs and have a face-to-face with the search boss. We need to make an arrangement about communications - if they hear one of us yelling at them to get out from the stairway or if they hear the air horn immediately outside, it's time to go. They should also (as always) make their search fast so we can play a tight game here.

Should we identify that we appear to have less-than-adequate pressure/volume in the line, a well-drilled company should be able to diagnose and correct this pretty much instantly. The problem lies with the pipe, the line, or the pump. The pipeman should be able to know instantly if there's a problem with the pipe. If that isn't it, the control (in this case, our driver that suited up and came in) needs to follow the line back and look for kinks, debris on the line or burn-throughs. This means following the line all the way back to the pump if necessary. If the problem isn't there, we can radio the pump operator (or our control man can ask) if there's a problem.

If we can't clear this up within several seconds, the search team needs to get downstairs and help us back our line out until we can get back into operation. This needs to happen immediately.

Now I guess I've painted myself into a corner. Our control man is crawling outside and now the pipeman goes down. I need to quickly identify what the problem is. Are they fatigued, in distress, unconscious? Fatigued would be great, especially right as the backup man straightens out a kink and water surges back into the line. Anyway...

What we have here is huge potential for things to go south immediately. Unless it's a five-second breather for the pipeman, we need to back out. Nobody else has showed up to help and things aren't getting better. I'm going to assess my pipeman for breathing and tell the team upstairs to get down here and help me via radio. I'll transmit a MAYDAY as well, but the reality of this incident dictates that our best bet is to use the resources at hand.

As my control man returns (remember, he just kicked out a kink) I'm going to tell him to get the truck downstairs to help us (if we're not in radio contact) and then get on the pipe to cover the retreat. I'll convert the harness of my pipeman's SCBA, activate his PASS and start removing him back along the handline. If the control man doesn't need to get the guys upstairs, I'll want him to help me to get the pipeman most of the way back and then haul the pipe back to a position where he can protect the stairs until the truck gets downstairs.

Once everyone's out, we need to reassess the pipeman and initiate whatever care they will need, cancel the MAYDAY, update the IC and if my member needs anything more than a quick breather, notify my Fire Alarm that we have an injured member being transported to (X) hospital. Tactically, we need to determine what we can do (most likely a deck pipe or exterior line) to deal with the fire in this exposure building until more help shows up.

My preference would be to take up and follow our member to the hospital, but we'll need to be released in order to do that. Regardless, whenever we clear out of the incident, we're going to check on our member.

Be safe.

Permalink Reply by Mark Langston on February 5, 2009 at 11:59pm

What is your hose stretch?

Depending on the building and extent of fire in the building I would stretch an 1 3/4 or 2 1/2. More likely an 1 3/4 is it is just my company and that is it stretching the line. Seeing that I have never worked with the mutual aid department will determine what I will do. If that dept has a bad rep as far as abilities I will probably camp my operator with the truck I am pulling a line off to "help" the other operator. Mainly he will be there to cover our butts. I do not want to be committed into a structure and not know anything about the person pumping my line or running the fire from the outside so my operator will be looking out for us. I would tell my crew that we need to watch out for each other and to be more than careful seeing we are kind of on our own.

What do I consider knowing there is a search team on the second floor?
I would want to make sure I am able to communicate via radio with the crews in the same structure. I am going to want to know how the made the upper floor. If it is an interior stair I want to know where that is so it can be protected.

My operator on the outside should have been monitoring our hoseline so the water supply issue wouldve hopefully been avoided, but if it were due to something else. I would start thinking we had a kink in our line, or kinks since 1 3/4" can be bad with kinks. Having my nozzleman slump over on the floor I would call a MayDay and then I would work to get him out on my own. There would hopefully be a door or window near our location and I would get him out on my own. I would not be relying solely on a crew that I do not know anything about getting us out.