Residential Fire

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 8, 2008 at 11:57pm

Chris, did I read the dimensions correctly? 200 x 1000? That is a hell of a large residential structure occupying a city block.

I will have to assume, if the dimensions are correct, that this is a multiple occupancy residential, possibly a hotel?

As to actions, it will really have to do with what type of residential this is, condition and quality of the smoke, possible locations of the smoke and what my resources are that are en route.

I guess I am asking for a little more info please before I can give you possible actions. Is this based on an actual event? Do you have pics?

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on December 9, 2008 at 12:07am

Sorry Brick, it is supposed to be 100 x 200

This is a single family dwelling with smoke conditions heavy enough that a passer-by on the road came to the closest fire station 1 1/2 blocks away to report it. You are unable to really pinpoint an area of heaviest smoke and you have a full first alarm assignment. Does that help?

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 9, 2008 at 1:53am

The first move for me on a Truck would be to establish a Rescue Profile and gain entry to the occupancy in order to perform a search. Given the hour and the nature of the occupancy; ie residential.

A search for life, a search for fire location.... The initial search is a reconnaissance mission for the IC which will establish the tenability of interior conditions as well as locating the seat for the engine thus saving them time during the stretch.

Additionally, aggressive ventilation is in order here for the Truck Company. This is a residential occupancy with no one out front to meet you. In my district, given the nature of the homeless and drug populations, there is no such thing as an abandon building. Vandals and gang members love abandon structures. So do those that set up clandestine drug labs. The bottom line is there is no such thing as an abandon building. Remember, abandon buildings don't set themselves on fire. Short of a lightning strike, someone got in and started the fire, either by accident or design, and they might still be inside needing our assistance.

The argument is always for coordination between venting and suppression, but coordination doesn't mean simultaneous. In fact quick, aggressive ventilation should take place before the line advances in.

Aggressive venting will improve interior conditions for trapped occupants as well as assist in locating the fire.

Might the fire light up; yes. But, that will certainly take the guess work out of locating the fire as well as serving to create a proper and safe thermal layering. Furthermore, the time needed to properly vent this occupancy should require enough of time that the engine should arrive and prepare to go to work once the Truck finishes their duties.

Some caution is in order if you are the engine officer. Given the size of the occupancy and the fact that there is a marginally serious smoke condition, caution dictates that a larger line be stretched.

The old rule of thumb I learned from an old crusty Jake was: If the fire has control of more than two residential sized bedrooms, if the fire is of an undetermined size and location, if the fire is below grade (basement), if there is a serious smoke condition on arrival or if the fire is in a commercial occupancy than a 2 1/2 line must be the initial line stretched.

Time consuming and manpower intensive stretching the 2.5 line; YOU BET. But you will need the big guns in these cases and firefighters must avoid reflexively stretching the 1 3/4 line (because we always stretch that line)

The 1.75 line is a great tool but many firefighters have learned bad habits reinforced by lucky outcomes with this hose. More times than not the 1 3/4 doesn't have the GPMs to knock down the BTUs but creates that exact perception when firefighters hold a fire to a room. In reality the fire isn't knocked down at all but rather held in check while the fire consumes all available fuel. The fire doesn't spread but the line doesn't move forward either.

In this specific example we are talking about a larger and two story residential occupancy, late at night with a fire of undetermined size and location as well as a significant smoke condition. Unlike some, I don't have a problem with the larger lines; I like 'em. Bring the big guns in!!

Stay safe, BRICK

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 9, 2008 at 9:06pm

As the officer, let the B/C have command. My company, would lead off w/ a 2.5 in line. I agree with Brick, this is a big gun job. As the officer, we better be sounding the floor, so we don't end up in the basement. The other companies would need to aggressively vent to locate the fire. With the time of day and no one waiting on arrival, our second engine company would start the search. Communication would be priority for the officers on the scene. This would go at least two alarms quick, just to get the needed firefighters on the scene.With the size of this structure, My guess, only a guess, would be lightweight everything, and we need to be paying attention to time, and accountability of our personnel. Once we find the fire, can we stop this or do we need to rethink or just get out. By this time, our search guys have found anyone still in the structure.
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 11, 2008 at 3:56pm

What would you guys do if after opening the front door, if that is where you woud enter a 20,000 square foot per floor building as described, if no smoke was showing inside? This is so large, can members of our teams get lost inside? I would be concerned with finding the fire and watching for the nearest exit while doing this. I would also think about using a search rope so if conditions turned out going bad qucikly, I could get everyone out. The place is so large, what precautions would you take during the investgation for the seat of the fire?

Permalink Reply by Chris Fleming on December 11, 2008 at 5:20pm

This is a huge building, and even though it is a single family home, you can't treat it as such. The construction of these "McMansions" is newer and therefore will have tusses, large open areas (both on the horizontal plane and vertically), tight building construction, atypical floor plans, probably greater fire load (if you can afford this house, just think of the toys!) to mention a few problems. I agree with Brick, ventilation is a huge priority here for all the reasons he mentioned. As far as search for life, this would be a good time for V.E.S. targeting the bedrooms. I also agree that a 2 1/2" line is needed here. However, I would not let the attack team go past covering the stairwell unless I had a clear idea the location and extent of the fire. These big buildings can hide a lot of smoke and allow it to cool thus giving you "lazy" smoke conditions from the exterior. If we look to the past few years, guys are definitely getting jammed up in these buildings due to a number of reasons. In my mind a fire in a building like this raises a red flag.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 12, 2008 at 12:46pm

-Chris, I really like the VES technique on residential occupancies. Unfortunately, not enough of people understand safe, proper and appropriate VES techniques or the High Target Areas to employ VES. There is to much misinformation floating around out there about VES so as to be detrimental and that needs to be corrected.
-Great observation about the lazy smoke conditions. Lots of red flags, warning bells and klaxon alarms on this particular fire.
-Stay safe

Permalink Reply by Brian Arnold on December 12, 2008 at 1:07pm

Echoing some of what's already been talked about, tactics have to change in these type structures. Pre-connects are not going to typically be able to reach all areas of the home. Static loads on engines become that much more important as well as the training to get the lines in place. Potential of the fire has to be taken into account since some of these homes are larger than many small business'. Even with VES techniques, caution and common sense have to be exercised. I have been in some of these homes that it would take a 40' crawl from the window to get control of the door. Some of these homes have closet space that rivals many bedrooms. Even when we start looking at ventilation our approach has to change. You may cut a wonderful h*** in the roof only to find out you don't have a hook long enough to take out the ceiling.

Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on December 13, 2008 at 6:06am

Brick has stated this perfectly in my opinion and as the Truck OIC, we will position at the "A" side and the operator will put the aerial to the roof. I will do a quick 360 if possible and report the findings to the Chief. Operator and another member will prepare to VES the 2nd floor bedrooms with ground ladders while I and another member will force entry and begin a search with an Engine right behind us. We are not only searching for fire and victims. we are searching for structural compromise, signs of flashover, etc...From an Engine perspective, I would suggest a 2.5" line vs 1.75" due to the size of the structure.

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on December 14, 2008 at 12:32am

I think everyone is right on here. We can't treat this building as a normal residence. Once you have the size of the place figured out it almost turns into a commercial structure. Ropes for search should start coming out, air consumption needs to be at the forethought of everyone's mind and when you are inside you should always be looking for a way out (not that you don't already, but in these structures the exit may be farther away)

A thermal imager (and someone who knows how to use it) is a must in these structures. Just like a commercial structure the ceilings are much higher than in a normal residential structure. With smoke banked to the floor you will have a very hard time trying to figure out conditions above you, also with the increased ceiling height you have that much more space for fire gases to build above your company. Having an imager will give you an idea of what is going on in the areas you can't reach.

Early and aggressive ventilation is a must! The sooner we can start getting the crap out of the building the sooner we can see what we are dealing with. Just remember, that once you cut that h*** you might be surprised to find that the 6 foot hook you have is not going to cut it for poking through the ceiling below. Ventilation through a walkout basement is a whole other story in a place like this. Have you ever tried setting a fan at the front of your local supermarket? Trying to cut a h*** in the floor to get things moving up and out can also be a problem. Depending on the area of the house you are working in you could be dealing with a thick, reinforced floor. With the size and weight of the appliances being put in the kitchens of these places the normal flooring won't cut it, so additional reinforcement is needed.

As for the 2 1/2" lines I was always taught the ADULTS acronym and the L sure fits here, Location Not Known.

Thanks for replying, Stay Safe!!

Piep

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on December 15, 2008 at 10:13am

If this was a single story as in the first question, I would have the driver flake a hose to the front door and charge it. I would grab the TIC and do a quick 360 if i could using the camera to scan all side from the exterior looking for heat signatures in the structure to pin point if possible and look for visible rescues.
The 3rd firefighter would force entry on A side if that being the front door. Ladder Co would ladder roof for vent if needed as well as second story windows.
I this were the 20,000 building I too would switch over to the 2 1/2 line for attack. Im not sure how well the rope search technique would be compaired to staying with the line. TIC for sure, Ladder Co to the roof to investigate and report. 2nd engine water supply to first engine, and 3rd Engine Sprinkler if there is one and Rit.

Hope I did ok :L)
Wayne

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 15, 2008 at 7:39pm

In dept's with reduced mamning how do you guys handle moving in with a 2 1/2? Even 50ft. length of hose wieghs about 100 pounds.
Also, when we are spotting the rigs, we should consider the collapse zone on these, just like the thread "When Do We Say Enough" I think we need to consider collaspe becuase like was mentioned this place has probablly got truss inside.

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