reply to j scott

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Permalink Reply by Bobby Halton on March 12, 2008 at 9:57am

Anthony
You would be amazed how many departments do not have any pre-assigned responsibilities for arriving companies. The thinking is that the first due officer will assume command and assign all subsequent arriving companies. I do not agree with this at all, first I feel it places far to much pressure on the first due officer, second I feel it absolves the subsequent arriving officers of making good decisions and being responsible. Third there are some who feel the first arriving officer should not participate in firefighting activities, I think that is totally unacceptable. We have company officers because where we do our work is so dangerous and so dynamic. Remove the company officer and the crew should stay outside in my opinion. The officer stays with the crew. The exception being a correctly staffed and correctly trained truck company. Just my two cents but I am just an old full duty coward who only has to face danger at the computer! so you are the expert what do you think?
Bobby

Permalink Reply by Anthony Avillo on March 12, 2008 at 10:36am

amen brother
how come this came to my email and njot to the group "fireground strtageies" discussion thing
this is where i'm confused?

Permalink Reply by Bobby Halton on March 12, 2008 at 10:49am

me too

Permalink Reply by Jay Michael on March 12, 2008 at 6:08pm

We do about the same thing. Engines have 3, Officer and 2 Truck has 4, Officer and 3
Residential
1st. Attack
2nd. Water then RIT
3rd. Backup
4th. Secondary Water, Await assignment
Truck force entry, search, secondary egress.
Medic assist truck or special asssignment.
Battlion Chief and safety officer riding together.

I am not sure I agree, I do it, but I don't have to agree with it.
I do agree these aforementioned things need to be accomplished at most residential fires. I feel we would be more efficient if the first in officer would do his size up then determine if his two hands will make a difference in the outcome. If his two hands will make the problem go away, he needs to pass command. If his two hands will not make the problem go away immediately, he needs to take command. Assign the needed tactics to complete his strategy to the incomming units. That way all will be working toward one common goal or strategy if you will. In the book The Art of War, Sun Tzu makes a comment something to the effect ,Strategy without tactis is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. It seems to me our method can lead to a lack of command and freelancing.
Our city is about 25 square miles and we have 7 engines 1 aerial and 3 ALS ambulances and one BC safety officer. What we do works for us, the command officers are usually there about the time or just before the second engine. I just think we would be more efficient and effective without the pre-assignments. Commercial fires are handled by havine the incomming units stage while the territory engine completes the size up, again the command vehicle is there just after the first engine. I worry the problem will show up when the command vehicle doesn't show up as another fire or, god forbid, a traffic accident, or a multitude of other reasons.
Looking at the NIOSH reports, I believe "breakdown of command" is listed on most of them. I am not selling his book but, "Incident Command for the Street Smart FIre Officer" by John "Skip" Coleman has really got me sold and I have been working that basic style, within the parameters I have been given, for the last 6-7 years. It is nothing more than give the incident what it needs, not what you want it to have, it hasn't read your pre-assignments. We need to assign tasks to complete the tactics to support the strategy of the commander in order to make the building behave. As far as the crew being left unsupervised, I have no problem with them initally doing a walk around, checkng for victims who may have jumped and landed in bushes. Information gathers if you will. They may perform some venting to control the fire and assist in keeping it contained. Remember this situation is already bigger than the first in company is able to make a difference on. Our 3 man crews it is sometimes diffficult to advance lines they can be reassigned to the following companies or be assinged door positions to help advance hose. As long as they have an assignment they are not freelancing.
Jay

Permalink Reply by Ray on March 13, 2008 at 1:06pm

I find it interesting that a department will have only one SOP. That being the first arriving (engine) company officer is to stand outside and be the IC. The reason this occurs is not because the chief will be late it occurs because the department does not have even a one page SOP that assigns and details what companies should be doing even for their most common type of fire. So the officer is FORCED to tell everyone comming in what they will be doing. Being the"Announcer" is not done to safeguard the troops as some might believe. It is a fall back assignment for a department that has not taken the time to figure out something better. He should be giving a good initial size up, obtaining a water supply, stretching the line and then supervising the crew.

Permalink Reply by Anthony Avillo on March 13, 2008 at 1:31pm

As a Chief, I am not always first on the fireground, and sometimnes the last of the first alarm assignment. It is relatively comforting to me to know that before I get there, the IC who is usually a CO or even a BC does not have to personally assign all my companies. It is done automatically. To expect a Captain to do this is counterproductive. the captain (the initial IC) is better utilizing a mobile command and beginning the suppression operation with his company. It is safer for the personnel he is charged with directly supervising. He doesn't have to tell the ladder Officer to get to the roof or horizontally vent when the attack is ready or the chauffeur to get a water supply ffrom a specific hydrant -- these basics are taken care of in advance. Most fires are put out by the first line properly positioned in a timely manner and coordinated in an equally proper fashion with ventilation. Most officers don't need to be told how to do this.
Initial scene assignments, no matter how basic (and they should be) allow the game to get off with all the players on the same page. We combine 3 man crews to stretch a first line as we have found it is more efficient, especially in multi-story buildings. Keeping it as simple as first line to the fire, 2nd line to back it up and /or go to floor above. One truck team to search, one truck team to roof or VES depending on building type starts the ball rolling. It allows the IC to figure out his next moves and plan ahead, forcasting wehere additional lines need to go, what support actions are required to compliment them, etc. Initial scene assignemnts should also assign FDC supply. If this is left to chance, what if the IC forgets to assign it. Be careful about micromanagement of intial responders. They usually resent it. Have the basics of a plan worked out beforehand, not when u get there and hope you are all on the same page (u will not be, especially ion a dicey situation), Let the guys begin the attack, evaluate it based on reports, and adjust as necessary. You don't have to agree, but this scene assignment business is the first step toward accountability and more importantly company integrity. I'm a big fan of doing initial business on the fireground in this manner

Hey, and don't be plugging other books on a "Fireground Strategies" page (LOL--just kidding -- plug away!!)

Permalink Reply by Jay Michael on March 13, 2008 at 6:59pm

For some reason we seem to be having two discussions on the same subject. I just copied and pasted here with a few comments to be more specific to this particular discussion.
I have no problem with assigned tasks for riding positions, outside vent, forcable entry, can man. What I am talking about is someone needs to be in command. The first in engine, if his two hands will immedately help the situation, he needs to help the situation. A brief size-up passing command to the next in unit briefly outlining what he is doing so the next in unit can follow along with the strategy in place. I really don't want alot. all I ask of my incomming officers for the sizeup is what they have, what they are doing about it and what they need help with. This way a strategy is in place to allow the crews to segue (your term qv. follow along). They will be able to determine , for example, are we venting for life or fire? I assign crews to accomplish tactics that need to be done, when they need to be done (that is a drastic over simplification). We really arn't very far apart in our thinking. The more a firefighter knows what is expected the better all will be. At the risk of being redundent "command" is the preson to let them know what to expect. With the term command I do not mean command officers but whom ever has command at that moment. The person giving the orders can not be inside on a hand line. Fires are a dynamic thing, conditions change, its very hard to notice the changing conditions on the inside. Pre-assignments, in my opinion, set firefighters on task sometimes so much so that changing conditions are not noticed. Remember the conditions I believe it is necessary to pass command are when the officers two hands will help the incident. Quick knockdown fire goes out, generally the problem gets better. The bigger the incident the more to do. The quicker an organized attack is in place, the less chance command gets overwhelmed. As far as micro-managing telling a crew to do specific tasks, no, I assign them a tactic using the department SOP-G-preplan, whatever you choose to call them, to know what and how to complete it. When I assign these, it is to assure their safety and where they are working. That is MY (when I am in command) responsibility. I know what is being done, if I am getting my expected result, which allows me to think about plan B, C or D if necessary. I can not imagine how thick the book is that covers all the possibilities of fire in different types of structures. I really don't think Mr. McCormack is advocating that either. Protect the exposures, confine the fire, control the fire, extinguish the fire is not a real hard concept. That may be done with ventilation only, extinguishment will be achieved when it runs out of fuel. That is, as you must agree, not effective nor is it efficient. The troops need to be on the same page. For instance in war the Air Force could drop bombs all day someone makes sure the Marines are not in a target area. And for the sake of being redundent, The first in engine, if his two hands will immedately help the situation, he needs to help the situation. A brief size-up passing command to the next in unit briefly outlining what he is doing so the next in unit can follow along with the strategy in place.
For those of you reading this, it is really fun to have a healthy discussion. I don't wish to convert anyone, what I do works where I am. I want the fires to go out and all to go home. I can remember the time where the incident commander came into the building just to ask who was in there. We have come along way.
Jay

Permalink Reply by Ray on March 13, 2008 at 8:26pm

I believe that understaffed departments would be better served if the companies had predetermined roles. Company officers should know that the first engine will be stretching a handline into the house. This idea that we have to have someone outside to talk to everyone as they arrive is not true. Will his two hands be best used inside? I believe so and having SOP's will make it possible for this crew to be have supervision. By not having those SOP's we are forced to keep him outside.

Permalink Reply by Ray on March 14, 2008 at 8:33am

Dave - I like the way you said that companies should know what is expected of them unless told otherwise. Your staffing level (and others) only further proves my point. If the first due officer stands out side as the Carnival Barker (lol) then we have lost not only direct supervision of a crew but also a fair percentage of our ON SCENE firefighting force.
If you respond with three out of six total is it really necessary to stay outside and direct the next three when they arrive? This discussion is not about 2 in 2 out.