You're first due to this fire, now what?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 29, 2008 at 7:33pm

Yeah Chris
That's what I would do. Tell them vent this window or that. This is important espicially when you know ,as the officer, that the FF's will expect to do one thing or another as a standard practice. Even if this common practice is not written into the SOP's of the dept. In the end it is what an officer does to be effective on the fire ground. I had an officer that said to always anticipate what will happen next and you will always look like a hero. Is the idea of "mobile command " in your SOP's ? or just a term used in the dept?

Permalink Reply by Tim Linke on October 29, 2008 at 9:22pm

Chris...I think you're initial instincts are correct. I by no means am an expert, and we obviously have the luxury of watching the video over and over again, but we have to sometimes consider the amount of benefit that we gain from taking an extra minute to vertically ventilate. Look at the structure. It is a single story, probably wood frame. Should be quick and easy work for two guys, a saw, and a ladder (that know what they're doing.) You have smoke exiting under pressure along the roof line, which indicates a hot and deep seated fire. Take the front windows? No way...not until a 360 is performed. And even then, look at what happens when the door is opened...high volume, dense, rapidly moving smoke towards the primary means of egress. At least you can control the door; if you take the front windows, you'll still get a backdraft and you can't put the glass back in place. If you plan on entering the structure from the front door and you take the windows from the rear, it might make a little more sense, but it still allows the explosion to take place on a horizontal plane and not "up and out" like it wants to go. Let the truckies cut the roof (if it is safe to do so) and let THEM determine where the fire goes, rather than have it chase you out of the house.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 30, 2008 at 5:28pm

One thing on this page is that we're all on the same team There are no ABSOLUTE'S
We all just respectfully debating our opinions and trying to learn new things

Here's my thinking on this one.
We definitly need to know where we think the fire is located by sizing up and comparing the different sides. The building looks small so the walk is quick. It appears to have the fire in the front area of the house , maybe the living room/ dinning room. So the quickest way to vent are those windows. Let's use a 10 foot pike pole if need be. Attack from the rear and drive it out those windows if need be (reasons why later)

We all agree that there are probably no live vicitms in the fire area. But could there be some in other parts of the building? Even at this time of day? Maybe. I'm assuming from looking at the video it is a residential occupancy. For this reason, I believe we have partiion walls inside where there could be persons remote from the seat of the fire that are still alive.
For this reason I ask, is taking the windows from a safe side position with a long pike pole quick and easy? Maybe.
We are working with total five FF's initially.. The others are still 3-4 minutes away

After the backdraft, is there alot more that we can expect to happen from it? I'm thinking not too much more, espescially after we get some water on it. We could lob the water in from a safe distance (through the front vented windows if there was defeintly no one inside ) until it cooled, then enter.

Or (if the officer decides there are persons to protect in those rear, partition rooms) attack from the rear.
If we take the windows, then enter from the rear, the second companies could vent the roof to clear the attic when they arrive

The idea of taking the front windows near the seat is to let a fire like this do what it wants (which is get some air). Now, it's a flashover where the answer is more water then BTU's. I'm thinking that the decision on the ventilation and the first hose line attack position is based on the possibility of persons to protect away from the fire. This is based on what was learned after we arrived to the scene. In our size up it appears to be a residential occupancy.

Another idea - if there is no one inside, we could wait for the roof to opened.

What are your thoughts?

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 3, 2008 at 6:01pm

Sounds go Chris
It's not that big a deal to me to give it a hit from outside as long as we know that no one is inside that is still alive. I'm thinking with the reduced manning that the best way to get water on it quickly is to take out the windows. This is espicilly if there is some one in the rooms towards the rear that still might be alive. In other words, they are in a bedroom with the doors closed tight and have little smoke floating around in their area

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 4, 2008 at 12:06am

I have heard and I agree with the statement, "Ventilation is a dying art in the fire service". After watching the video the first question I have is why was there no ventilation? Truck work; it has to get done. To many firefighters forget or ignore truck work because it is not glamorous or sexy. The reality is, sorry my engine Brothers, Engine Companies put out fires BUT Truck Companies determine how the fire is put out. Pointing the nozzle is such an infinitesimal part of the firefighting operation and yet many firefighters are competing like rutting bucks to get the nozzle and many times forgetting the two most important evolutions-ventilation and search operations.
We have to make the building behave; improve the working environment.... Truck work gets done even if the fire is in a phone booth.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 4, 2008 at 12:14am

Jim, you touched on an important point that is getting blown over in your observations. You said... "as long as we know that no one is inside that is still alive". How do we know this until we get firefighters inside? We must vent and search before we think about water.
I agree, "put the fire out and generally things get better", however, in smaller residential fires that may not always work, especially when you factor in thermal inversion and the fact that victims will continue to be exposed to the heat, smoke and byproducts of combustion WHILE the fire is being extinguished. Our engine Brothers need to remember a Tom Brennen-ism. In a residential setting, the nozzleman's job is not to put out the fire but rather to facilitate the search by keeping the fire in check until a search has been completed, then and only then is the fire knocked down.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 7, 2008 at 2:06pm

Yeah Mike That it! In the end of the decission making process what I believe we are doing is asking a question about the size up of the situation. How do we know that there is not someone in the rear that could need a rescue attempt? We decide on what we know and what we think could be the problem here. I believe we need to think in a stategic way at the start oif the operation. The first due officer is also the IC at first. With life (ours first, civilains second ) then property at the start of the operation

And I agree what Tom B said - that the engine is to enable the truck/ search team the ability to search in relative safety. So the coordiantion must be done for the attack, the search, venting etc....

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 7, 2008 at 2:13pm

Everyone being as independant as the fire service is I think we need to be able to agree to work together on the scene when the engine and the truck companies arrive together.

Priority must be recognized for when the 2 companies arrive to the scene so our actions will benefit those inside who need help. If the engine must hold the fire so the truck can search , it has to be becasue civlian lives are at stake.

Permalink Reply by Harry Harty on November 11, 2008 at 7:00pm

Hi All........is it just me or this video from across the big pond and they're using a much smaller attack line than we(USA) typically use? I know there is a camp in the US advocating different techniques than the 1-3/4"or 2" or even the 2-1/2" lines that have been discussed here,any comments? Harry

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 13, 2008 at 10:20am

Yeah Harry
I think it's from Europe some where. I think they like to suffocate the fires by some how not venting until there is water on it. I think they have different compartmentation than we do and also I think some countries may also line their ceiling joists with yhings like sand. So when the fire breaches the lath and plaster sand drops oonto the fire like a sprinkler head would do here.
What are your thoughts on the the point of attack and venting if you were the first officer in charge of the scene with 4 ohter FF's ?

Harry Harty said:

Hi All........is it just me or this video from across the big pond and they're using a much smaller attack line than we(USA) typically use? I know there is a camp in the US advocating different techniques than the 1-3/4"or 2" or even the 2-1/2" lines that have been discussed here,any comments? Harry

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on November 29, 2008 at 8:34pm

Like Jim, I'm not an officer yet but I'm trying to learn as much as I can before hand. Alot can be said for getting a variety of different thoughts and tactics from anywhere you can. It helps (me anyhow) formulate my own approach to different scenerios. This will be my first post, hopefully I don't hack it up to much.

With that said, I'll take a crack at it...

This appears to be a very small occupancy, no basement and a very low pitched "flat"roof. 2 or 3 room cabin? During the 360, do any of the other windows offer any information? If it appeared the whole structure was charged with heavy smoke, that would seem to be helpful in determining the survivabilty aspect. If thats the case, venting a window on side 3 or 4 (preferably) could be coordinated with the attack through the front door.

On the other hand, vertical venting seems like the logical answer. With the low roof and the interior ceiling probably attached right to the rafters, could this roof be vented with limited risk and effort? From the short video I tend to think it could be. Are there any natural vents that would assist us to speed up the process? Can't tell from the video. This allows all the crap to go up and out away from us and any possible victim. I may even try hydraulic venting through the roof if we got the opening big enough. I think if the pressure inside the structure is substantial (as it appeared to be), any opening in the roof system would begin relieving it immediately.

I think hose line selection would vary with what type of ventilation I opt for. The vent done in the video indicates that a 2 1/2 probably should be stretched. Again though, this appears to be about the size of a one car garage maybe. But I do wonder if vertical ventilation was done, the backdraft would be prevented thus the entire structure wouldn't become involved to the extent that it did allowing for 1 3/4 at the door into the front room.

OK, now I'm counting on you guys to help me out and let me know how I did. Todd

Permalink Reply by Dustin Miller on November 30, 2008 at 12:41pm

I am by no means an officer either...if i'm rolling up to this small of structure with somewhat minimal smoke (initially) I would not think to pull a 2 1/2. Not saying that thats the right answer, but I wouldn't think to pull it. I do agree with Mike in the fact that ventilation especially vertical vent is a dying art and has to be done and more importantly done correctly and effeciently. Ventilation is the best thing to do in order to save lives (just my opinion). What kills people?...heat, smoke, oxygen deprevation. What does venting do? Reduces all of these things. I also like the that it was mentioned that we don't know until we search if there is sustainable life. Especially in today's society...cars in the drive way, time of day, type of residence, etc. are not accurate indicators of occupancy. Still think you have to search EVERY TIME. Maybe not in the fire room, but a good size up will give a good indication of rooms that have conditions for life. Just because fire is blowing out of every front window, if the occupants run to the back room or bath room and close the door, then that room may still be survivable. Again a complete 360 and looking at all indicators and not just the initial ones make all the difference in the world.

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