2-in-2-out

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sunshine Lemme on April 5, 2008 at 6:57am

We are pretty lucky as to manpower, but we still have problems with the two out. We are volunteers, and pretty much all interior firefighters want to practice what they train. The few who don't are not the ones I want to rely on as part of my "out". It's unfortunate that the initial RIT-RAT-FAST team should be the best personnel we have, but they are the ones I would want there if I were the one lost or trapped inside. Of course, as we are volunteers, the officers are light on discipline, so those who show up at the door are the ones that go in.

As a combo dept, I assume that your first responders are the paid crew, with the volunteers following. It seems to me that, within the constraints of the 2 & 2 rule, all the first due can do is to connect to water, stretch lines, size-up, and, using the immediate danger to life exemption, rescue victims.

I would be very leery of keeping "the third guy" out, as that implies one guy in. I may be reading your intent wrong, but I don't think it is ever acceptable to have one person making entry, except for the immediate rescue exemption. That said, I write a "General Prudential Rule" into all my plans, stating that the rules may be violated in prevent loss of life, which is pretty much what OSHA puts into the immediate danger to life provision.

I'm glad that this isn't a problem that we have. Waiting for a charged line to get to the door seems to take forever when we are ready to enter, I can't imagine what it must be to wait 5-7 minutes for the second due before beginning a search.

Have you thought of having your 2 out being volunteers who standby at the firehouse in shifts? I know that's a lot to put on them, but it may be a solution given that you have financial constraints. Are there enough volunteers to be able to do this without burning them out? I think I would bring it up at a meeting and put it into their laps, let them come up with the solution that they are comfortable with.

Most important, BE SAFE!

Permalink Reply by Joe McClelland on April 5, 2008 at 10:54am

We never have one go in alone. It is always two at least. The line is never delayed going in. We get a pretty fair amount of fire duty, so tactics are nowhere near a problem. What I am asking is how are people complying to the OSHA rule. We will attack the fire with 2 then have the third do O.V. vent or some other task if search for life is not the number one task, ( being told that someone is for sure in the building.) Then our 2nd and 3rd in companys will be given tasks from there. We have a part-time job that responds auto aid but they are hit and miss with manning. Our other auto aid is another full time job, but they are 5-7 out due to them being in another district and dispatch delays. Of course all bets are off when life is at stake, we all go then. In the eyes of OSHA, we are 'breaking the law' to them. But what can you do?
So my main questions is how are those not blessed with manpower complying to the rule?

Permalink Reply by Rudy Horist on April 5, 2008 at 8:45pm

Joe -

Our normal staffing on an engine is 3. Although OSHA (IDOL for you and I in Illinois) technically allows the engineer and IC to be part of 2 in/ 2 out (with some specific requirements) our department believes this is not practical. Because of this we require a second company (frequently a 2 person ambulance) to be on the scene, geared up and functioning as what we call the Initial Rapid Intervention Team or IRIC. In essence we have 2 in and 3 out (counting the engineer). We are fortunate in that in the majority of cases the second company is arriving in close proximity to the first. With the rapid expansion of our city though this is a changing situation. Our intention for the IRIC is that they are for the first several minutes only and if the fire is more than a single line, quick knockdown situation we upgrade to a "working fire" which sends a 2nd truck which is pre-designated for RIT and an additional ambulance pre-designated for firefighter EMS needs.

I have attached our IRIC policy. Please give me a call if you would like to discuss this topic further.

Stay Safe,
Rudy Horist
Assistant Chief
Elgin Fire Department

Attachments:

• 2023.01 - Safety - Initial Rapid Intervention Team.pdf, 129 KB

Permalink Reply by Sunshine Lemme on April 6, 2008 at 2:28pm

Great SOP, it seems to cover it all. I especially like the need for a report justifying the need for immediate entry. It's now in my SOP file.

Permalink Reply by Sunshine Lemme on April 6, 2008 at 2:31pm

Thanks, I couldn't imagine why any officer would let one man enter.

Permalink Reply by Joe McClelland on April 6, 2008 at 3:44pm

Thanks Chief. That was perfect.

Are you going to be at the TPM class at North Palos next month?

Joe

Permalink Reply by Rudy Horist on April 17, 2008 at 9:27pm

Joe -

I will unfortunately not be at the TPM class - I leave that Saturday morning for 2 weeks at the NFA and have several commitments that week. Are you going to be a student?

Also attached is the IRIC variance memo that goes along with our policy. We didn't do this to hang anyone but rather to be able to back up our officers. Since this went into effect in late 2005 we have only had 3 documented exceptions to the policy and each one was 100% justified.

Attachments:

• 2031.01a - Safety - IRIC variance.pdf, 37 KB

Permalink Reply by Drew Smith on April 18, 2008 at 1:00am

In Prospect Heights we use a sliding scale to meet the 2-in/2-out and IRIT/RIT (or RIC) expectations.
On the intial alarm, the driver of the first pumper and one other person (usually the IC) are the "first few minutes" RIT which meets the 2-in/2-out. Per the OSHA respiratory protection program regulation, the 2-out do not need to be dedicated-they may perform other functions as long as those do not interfer with the 2-out duty.
As soon as the balance of the first alarm is on site a formal 2-out crew is designated, usually and ambulance crew, and they do double duty as outside vent. I should mention we upgrade any working fire to bring a 2nd ladder, 4th engine and 2nd ALS-all mutual aid. The 2nd ALS then builds on the the initial RIT. If we go to a MABAS BOX we have specific companies on the box card who are RIT: 1 engine, 1 ladder, 1 chief = 9 members minimum.
Part of out RIT use "prevention" is calling for help early, recognizing when the fire has escaped the container, and knowing that while we fight 90% (maybe 99%) of our fires in houses/small apartments, it is the other types of buildings that really kill more FFs and require more personnel and higher flows.

Permalink Reply by Joe McClelland on April 18, 2008 at 10:11am

Perfect. Thank you for the time and help Drew.

Joe

Permalink Reply by Joe McClelland on April 18, 2008 at 10:14am

I will be a student at the TPM at North Palos.

As always, I thank you for your help. Thank you for taking the time.

Joe

Permalink Reply by Frank Ricci on April 18, 2008 at 5:26pm

Great topic note that 2 firefighters are know why a RIT team in real life. We all need to fight for poper staffing and ensure that we have enough companys on the box. In our city we use the 4th due engine of 4 firefighters as the RIT team. For the IC remeber for the begining of the alarm there is no politician on scene that says you can not call for the help you need to keep firefighters safe. Look into argreements with other department to ensure you have a RIT team you need.

Permalink Reply by Joe McClelland on April 18, 2008 at 6:20pm

We have an auto aid town come in as our dedicated RIT, but they of course are not there fast enough to effect 2-in-2-out. This is becoming a topic of concern in our area due to the fact that we have alot of part-time/vollie jobs around us that can't respond fast enough to help with 2-in2-out. Nothing against them, they just can't get out the door fast enough due to responding from home. So we pull up on a house fire, what job does not get done until other companies show up because of this rule? Keep two people outside and we don't vert. vent, search, pull a second line, the list goes on. Does this help or hinder us in our attack?

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