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Fog Tip vs Straight Tip Nozzles on Elevated Master Stream
We recently put straight tip nozzles on our elevated master stream in place of the origanaly we had Fog tips nozzle on it.Looking for some input on this or some articles that support the Fog Tip over the straight tips.I rather at the begining of a fire to have more coverage with a fog tip vs a straight tip nozzle.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Larry Lasich on
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Why not keep both and change out as needed? My "go to" would be a straight stack, but if you need to change them out, it doesn't take long to do. I like having the stack tip for the flow, reach, punch, small diameter (goes through small openings) and being less affected by wind. Plus, there is an extra control (stream shape) that you don't need to worry about.
It depends on what you think you will need it for, but like attack lines, you need to stay Semper Gumby.
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Permalink Reply by Moe Tischendorf on
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I can see your point it having the stack tips but would you have the stack tip on all the time or would you rather have the fog tips on then if you need the punch of a stack tips then switch that out?
Larry Lasich said:Why not keep both and change out as needed? My "go to" would be a straight stack, but if you need to change them out, it doesn't take long to do. I like having the stack tip for the flow, reach, punch, small diameter (goes through small openings) and being less affected by wind. Plus, there is an extra control (stream shape) that you don't need to worry about.
It depends on what you think you will need it for, but like attack lines, you need to stay Semper Gumby.
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Keep the stack tip on, and build a box or clamp for the fog stream that is at the end of the ladder.
It depends on what you do. If you like the area effect or do exposure protection, stay with the fog.
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Thanks for the advice this really helps
Larry Lasich said:Keep the stack tip on, and build a box or clamp for the fog stream that is at the end of the ladder.
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No probs; We live to serve.
Moe Tischendorf said:Thanks for the advice this really helps
Larry Lasich said:Keep the stack tip on, and build a box or clamp for the fog stream that is at the end of the ladder.
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We have a fog nozzle and have found very few times when it wasnt on a straight stream. We cant change ours out to a straight tip per the manufacturer but it would have a smooth tip if we could. Our deck guns and ground monitors are all equipped with smooth tips. I dont see much use for a fog pattern other than for large exposure protection or as a makeshift decon shower. If you are using an aerial for a master stream you are gonna want the reach and the penetration of a straight stream.
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Permalink Reply by Ricky Teter on
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Just my opinion, but I prefer to have the fog tip on the elevated master stream. Our Pierce sticks have a rescue mode setting where the nozzle can be a few rungs lower than the tip for protection from fire below while making rescues with the ladder. Having the fog nozzle in place gives us the ability to quickly have protection in place from the fog nozzles if needed for quick rescues or exposure protection. We have stack tips available for the switch if we are going to a defensive operation and we want the reach and penetration of a smooth bore. While transitioning from an offensive to a defensive operation we have the time to switch out the tips before beginning the defensive operation.
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We have stacked tip on all our master streams, ground guns, deck guns and the aerial gun. We've yet to switch to one of the fog guns we carry on each. In fact I can only think of a few times I'd really want them and that is for creating an air current to disperse vapors, the overhead "mass decon shower", and possibly exposure protection where the siding was very poor (gasoline siding or loose wood shingles?)
We held an aerial class last year with local FD's and brought in Lt. Mike Wilbur of FDNY and Emergency Vehicle Response and he was very convincing on the use of smoothbore guns. Defensively, you'll almost always want the punch, the fog nozzle increases the reaction force (significant at large flows) which can be damaging to the aerial if opened and closed or moved too quickly. The two other FD's in class now sport stacked tips on their aerials. As icing on the cake for the class, a large hotel under construction burned in one of the towns and it was a big mutual aid job, with an after action critique at which time all the smoothbore vs. fog MS hold out were sold on the stacked tips. High winds and tree branches destroyed most of their stream.
Ricky: Can you explain the theory behind the Fog MS being used as protection?
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My theory for the protection is if there are flames and smoke venting from a window or opening below a floor where the ladder is being used for a rescue, the fog stream can be used to protect the rescuer, the victim and the ladder from exposure while the rescue is being made. In another situation where there are exposures in need of protection and manpower is limited a fog stream can be utilized to cool the exposed structure. I realize that a smooth bore can be used for exposure protection also, but the penetration and punch that is an advantage for us when trying to reach the seat of fire can also be damaging to the structure that we are trying to protect. By no means am I anti-smooth bore, I believe that it has it's applications and is another tool that can be used to accomplish our mission.
Adam Miceli said:We have stacked tip on all our master streams, ground guns, deck guns and the aerial gun. We've yet to switch to one of the fog guns we carry on each. In fact I can only think of a few times I'd really want them and that is for creating an air current to disperse vapors, the overhead "mass decon shower", and possibly exposure protection where the siding was very poor (gasoline siding or loose wood shingles?)
We held an aerial class last year with local FD's and brought in Lt. Mike Wilbur of FDNY and Emergency Vehicle Response and he was very convincing on the use of smoothbore guns. Defensively, you'll almost always want the punch, the fog nozzle increases the reaction force (significant at large flows) which can be damaging to the aerial if opened and closed or moved too quickly. The two other FD's in class now sport stacked tips on their aerials. As icing on the cake for the class, a large hotel under construction burned in one of the towns and it was a big mutual aid job, with an after action critique at which time all the smoothbore vs. fog MS hold out were sold on the stacked tips. High winds and tree branches destroyed most of their stream.
Ricky: Can you explain the theory behind the Fog MS being used as protection?
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Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on
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-Rick, the protection factor you mention from an elevated master stream device is a misconception in the fire service. It depends on the assumption that water will be instantly available to the ladder pipe, in a split second, simply by pulling a lever as on a pumper.
-The reality is much different for a true ladder co. that has no pump nor on board water supply. Establishing this water supply to the ladder takes time, a separate engine company dedicated to the aerial, a dedicated water supply and manpower; and will certainly not be available instantly, as you imply, in order to provide the necessary protection during an ongoing hyperdynamic rescue operation over an aerial ladder.
-Moreover, in order to prevent damage to the aerial itself, it is simply more efficient to move/rotate the ladder away from the dangerous circumstances.
-Most concerning is he belief that a water spray from an elevated master stream device would be used to suppress a fire while a simultaneous victim rescue is performed.
-Not only would the searing steam cloud severely complicate the rescue and possibly seriously injury or kill the victim and/or the rescuers, but the elevation and extension coupled with the added weight of the water and the aerial/nozzle reactions could prevent a rescuer from even climbing the ladder. This would have to be verified on the inclinometer chart on the pedestal.
-Lastly, an elevated master stream device was never intended to be used as a proximity protection device during a rescue operation over an elevated aerial providing dual functions. Due to the massive amounts of water that a master stream applies, using an elevated master stream is a dangerous operation in and of itself, without adding the hyperdynamic nature of a victim rescue. This is simply not practical.
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-Adam, we had the same class from Mike several years ago and are of the same school of thought. What's more, we use this on most of our ladder companies though some still hold to the misconception of the fog. We use these on our master stream operations and have great results.
Adam Miceli said:We have stacked tip on all our master streams, ground guns, deck guns and the aerial gun. We've yet to switch to one of the fog guns we carry on each. In fact I can only think of a few times I'd really want them and that is for creating an air current to disperse vapors, the overhead "mass decon shower", and possibly exposure protection where the siding was very poor (gasoline siding or loose wood shingles?)
We held an aerial class last year with local FD's and brought in Lt. Mike Wilbur of FDNY and Emergency Vehicle Response and he was very convincing on the use of smoothbore guns. Defensively, you'll almost always want the punch, the fog nozzle increases the reaction force (significant at large flows) which can be damaging to the aerial if opened and closed or moved too quickly. The two other FD's in class now sport stacked tips on their aerials. As icing on the cake for the class, a large hotel under construction burned in one of the towns and it was a big mutual aid job, with an after action critique at which time all the smoothbore vs. fog MS hold out were sold on the stacked tips. High winds and tree branches destroyed most of their stream.
Ricky: Can you explain the theory behind the Fog MS being used as protection?
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My engine company carries both, fog and stacked tips. While both have uses, whether a deck gun or elevated master streams, stack tips seam to work better for a quick knock, when you get a reliable water supply, to supply that stream properly. Department policy is to run with a fog nozzle, however, unless I see a good reason to leave it in place, my stack tips will be on my deck gun when it goes into service.
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