fabric skined structures

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Permalink Reply by Ed Laugesen on March 12, 2009 at 2:59pm

Just commenting on the two tent theory ---- Obviously there has to be a heat source to warm the inside. I can only state from my experience that stagnent air is a good insulator. I lived in a small home in Florida (I know it supposedly doesn't get cold down here) that was built without any insulation what so ever in the walls or ceiling, there was a vapor barrier under the outside planking and the inside was 3/4" vertical tongue and groove paneling all very tight fitting. That home used less oil for the heater than any other home I have lived in. It also brings to mind the extensive use of double and triple pane windows up in Alaska where my brother used to live, some are gas filled but most just let the atmosphere pressure equalize and then seal the space between the panes, it could be 30 below zero outside and you could place your hand on the glass and not feel the cold so the one tent over another seem very plausible. As to the rest of the post, are you looking to build something like that here? From what I have read and talked to people up in the cold country they just use the light weight stuff for temporary structures

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Permalink Reply by Chris Fuhr MS student on March 13, 2009 at 10:54pm

What information on the tents and the rules that they had can you give me? Even which base if the tent is still there.

Part of what I'm trying to understand is that this type of structure might require a different type of fire precaution and fighting method.

the skin material burns sooner and hotter in some conditions but dosn't have a lot of BTU's to give the transfer to secondary burnable materials. The middle area would have smoke and the inner area could burn vertically into the second skin most likely at the top. but how much of standard fire prevention code is appliciable?

Some of the issues not decribed are that probably an air to air heat exchanger would be used so that air quallity is higher yet the heat stays where I need it.

It's possible that because of the shape a deliberate air flow of a doenut shape would naturally happen. The air woud cool in the center and pick up heat as it headed back to the walls.

I'm thinking that forced air allong as much of the walls as possible in tiny vents is the way to get this doenut effect going.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Fuhr MS student on March 13, 2009 at 10:55pm

Ed Laugesen said:

Just commenting on the two tent theory ---- Obviously there has to be a heat source to warm the inside. I can only state from my experience that stagnent air is a good insulator. I lived in a small home in Florida (I know it supposedly doesn't get cold down here) that was built without any insulation what so ever in the walls or ceiling, there was a vapor barrier under the outside planking and the inside was 3/4" vertical tongue and groove paneling all very tight fitting. That home used less oil for the heater than any other home I have lived in. It also brings to mind the extensive use of double and triple pane windows up in Alaska where my brother used to live, some are gas filled but most just let the atmosphere pressure equalize and then seal the space between the panes, it could be 30 below zero outside and you could place your hand on the glass and not feel the cold so the one tent over another seem very plausible. As to the rest of the post, are you looking to build something like that here? From what I have read and talked to people up in the cold country they just use the light weight stuff for temporary structures

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Permalink Reply by Chris Fuhr MS student on June 1, 2009 at 4:11pm

One accidental application of this is the office in a barn or Air hanger. It can be a bit of an overstretch of the best ratio of what-ever effect this is. But Wev'e all been somewhere that stayed un-naturally stable because another building dampered the fast shifting of tempature and wind factors. I'm both trying to understand what the engineering rules are for this including issues like buildup of chemicals (household cleaners, etc...) and trying to understand what it would be like in both fire prevention and fire fighting?

Would something like fire proof blankets falling into place work like a fire door? The European Solar houses could make fire breaks by simply adding fire proof vents that close when the fire is dected. Again their structure is heavy wood.

If one of the big problems is that flame would have an unrestricted path throughout the structure. What affect dose the fabric have in that it's burned thru almost as fast as it's reached max tempature. Would it make more sence that there be 3 layers of fire extingusher
1: inside
2: in-between layer
3: a set pointed exterior for things like fireworks landing on the roof?
So long as the fire fighting equipment wasn't forming a U-factor the principle should still hold.

Where can I read up on options and issues related to this?


Ed Laugesen said:

Just commenting on the two tent theory ---- Obviously there has to be a heat source to warm the inside. I can only state from my experience that stagnent air is a good insulator. I lived in a small home in Florida (I know it supposedly doesn't get cold down here) that was built without any insulation what so ever in the walls or ceiling, there was a vapor barrier under the outside planking and the inside was 3/4" vertical tongue and groove paneling all very tight fitting. That home used less oil for the heater than any other home I have lived in. It also brings to mind the extensive use of double and triple pane windows up in Alaska where my brother used to live, some are gas filled but most just let the atmosphere pressure equalize and then seal the space between the panes, it could be 30 below zero outside and you could place your hand on the glass and not feel the cold so the one tent over another seem very plausible. As to the rest of the post, are you looking to build something like that here? From what I have read and talked to people up in the cold country they just use the light weight stuff for temporary structures

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Permalink Reply by Chris Fuhr MS student on June 1, 2009 at 4:19pm

I tried contacting the Millitaries research department about this all that I found was that the contact persons retired.
Dose anybody have a base that this equipment is used? I could attempt to contact them. Dose anybody have any information on equipment like a model number or even a nick name would be something? A manual would be great!? knowing who would would on a base be in charge of fixing one setting one up, and of course our favorite giving a lecture on the proper use of one?

Brent Sanger said:

The military uses a lined tent quite often in colder environments. I have experienced sleeping in one of these tents at -55 F. However, there were 10 people in the tent contributing body heat, and we also had a liquid fuel fired stove heating the tent on the coldest nights. When the external temperature was around -10 to -20, the internal temperature with the heater off would hover just below freezing. While that may seem cold, it is livable, especially if you are moving around. The down side is the tents are made of canvas, and are not treated to be fire retardant. They burn very quickly, hence the policy of having someone awake the whole time the stove is functioning.

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