FIT Test & Facial Hair

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Tim Zehnder on January 23, 2009 at 1:49pm

Well put!

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Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on January 24, 2009 at 12:07am

-Many of the responses to this question, here and everywhere else it is discussed, are largely just opinion based when the inescapable fact of the matter is that all firefighters are made aware of the grooming standards before they are hired. If you are not happy with the grooming policy simple- don't become a firefighter.
-The grooming policy stems not from the para militaristic environment that we work in but rather is soundly based in safety testing and performance standards. Can people pass the fit test should they choose to wear a beard? Yes. Is it safe? The answer is an unqualified NO! The potential for compromise in dynamic events is deemed unnecessary and extraordinary.
-Still don't like the answer? Design a better mouse trap.
-Signed, a mustache wearing Brother.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on January 24, 2009 at 12:12am

Tim, well said.
-Also, to many people often overlook, either by accident or design, the fact that NFPA and OSHA are recommendations only until something happens requiring an investigation by the federal government; ie serious injuries or line of duty death. Then, a beautiful thing happens- all those recommendations become "measurable and enforceable standards violation of which results in monetary fines and/or criminal charges.
-Dont think so? Then you have not been paying attention.

C Whitby said:

Todd,
We have some of the same fights; I'm not sure what state you are in but here in NY we are an OSHA adapted state and like Bobby said these requirements are clearly spelled out in OSHA 29 CFR 1910.134. We do have a Hasidic Jewish community in the county where I am also a volunteer. They basically have few members that were cleared by the head rabbi to shave. Most of the interior fighting is done by an AMA neighboring department. Now does this always happen; NO; I have video proof; but that is the way it works on paper. Your basic dilemma is the infighting; this has a real simple solution; it’s an OSHA regulation and a NFPA recommendation which is strictly for the safety if the members. You should emphasize this in your training. Because I would not what it sit in a court room and explain why I ignored OSHA and NFPA. Especially in NY; we already have case law that shows you can be convicted for negligence for not following NFPA 1403. Hope this helps your problem,
Chris

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Permalink Reply by Ira Goodstadt on January 24, 2009 at 1:04am

My Pic says it all, Mustaches yes , no to beards as they arent professionally accepted lIke a Mustaches is. just my thoughts on it..

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Permalink Reply by Brenda Tenney on January 24, 2009 at 11:03am

On our dept,i don't see no one with facial hair.I think the chief mention that there was to be no beards or facial hair.
And to mention any lady fire fighter was to keep long hair up,out of face.
I think it is left up to the Fire department you belong to,if you can have facial hair or not. Like the brother said,if you keep it cut neat and clean.,that is for you,and your dept.

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Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on January 24, 2009 at 11:52am

Ive wrote on this subject before when someone asked why they could not wear their beard as it was part of their religion. The reason was simple rules and regulations for SAFETY reasons are written in black and white and if ignored by the fire service or firefighters them selves, we wont be able to keep protecting our members when they dont want to help themselves.
Here in Canada (Where the igloos are) we too have the same rules. However I will say when it comes to the mustache you are not breaking the rules it states no hair will interfer with the seal of the facepeice. So for a chief to state no one is allowed facial hair is simply wrong. Is it in writing? Is it a SOG. If it is then follow it if not ask why.

So this is what the US OSHA says:
Facepiece seal protection.
1910.134(g)(1)(i)
The employer shall not permit respirators with tight-fitting facepieces to be worn by employees who have:
1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A)
Facial hair that comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function; or

So explain where it states a mustache is not allowed. So if the Mustache is neatly trimmed and does not interfer with the face seal the problem is what? And yes the who cares attidude needs to Stop. Who cares? howabout the firefighters that are dying from cancers ask them and their familes who cares????

On the fire ground we talk about COMMEN SENSE.....I think it comes into place here as well

Stay Safe.
Wayne

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Permalink Reply by Tim Zehnder on January 24, 2009 at 1:31pm

But Michael, Minnesot is an OSHA state so it is law we have to follows what they say. Be Safe


Michael Bricault said:

Tim, well said.
-Also, to many people often overlook, either by accident or design, the fact that NFPA and OSHA are recommendations only until something happens requiring an investigation by the federal government; ie serious injuries or line of duty death. Then, a beautiful thing happens- all those recommendations become "measurable and enforceable standards violation of which results in monetary fines and/or criminal charges.
-Dont think so? Then you have not been paying attention.

C Whitby said:

Todd,
We have some of the same fights; I'm not sure what state you are in but here in NY we are an OSHA adapted state and like Bobby said these requirements are clearly spelled out in OSHA 29 CFR 1910.134. We do have a Hasidic Jewish community in the county where I am also a volunteer. They basically have few members that were cleared by the head rabbi to shave. Most of the interior fighting is done by an AMA neighboring department. Now does this always happen; NO; I have video proof; but that is the way it works on paper. Your basic dilemma is the infighting; this has a real simple solution; it’s an OSHA regulation and a NFPA recommendation which is strictly for the safety if the members. You should emphasize this in your training. Because I would not what it sit in a court room and explain why I ignored OSHA and NFPA. Especially in NY; we already have case law that shows you can be convicted for negligence for not following NFPA 1403. Hope this helps your problem,
Chris

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on January 24, 2009 at 1:59pm

-Tim, it really should be a cut and dry issue then in Minnesota. If there is any wavering on the issue it is because someone lacks the intestinal fortitude to enforce the rules trying t be a buddy instead of the boss. Like many hot issues in the fire service, firemen like to try and tinker with and over think the issue to appease everyone.
-If someone is seriously injured or killed OSHA, by a federal mandate will come in and investigate and the suggestions become enforceable standards subject to punishment.
-OSHA says no facial hair within the seal of the face piece and all members must pass a quantitative fit test. Period.
-Shave the the beard, trim the 'stach to an acceptable length and pass the fit test. Stop over thinking the rules or trying to say, "well, we don't do that here OR OSHA is just a guide line." These rules exist for our safety and the safety of our team members. Period.
-Safety rules are black and white; the gray area is the place where excuses live. If you begin your answer with, "Well, But, What if, We never do..." you're formulating a gray area, spineless and lackluster excuse in order to avoid conflict and taking a stand.
-Take the moral high ground and stick to your guns. No one ever said that doing the right thing would be easy. In fact, if presented with two options and one is much more difficult than the other; the hard choice is usually the right choice.

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Permalink Reply by Tim Zehnder on January 24, 2009 at 3:47pm

Very well put, if you don't like the rules find a different JOB!

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Permalink Reply by Larry Glover on January 24, 2009 at 6:08pm

My brother does our fit test and some tests for local depts. and he won't let anybody test that is not clean shaven.

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Permalink Reply by Brenda Tenney on January 24, 2009 at 8:27pm

Amen brother,tell it like it is.
Michael Bricault said:

-Many of the responses to this question, here and everywhere else it is discussed, are largely just opinion based when the inescapable fact of the matter is that all firefighters are made aware of the grooming standards before they are hired. If you are not happy with the grooming policy simple- don't become a firefighter.
-The grooming policy stems not from the para militaristic environment that we work in but rather is soundly based in safety testing and performance standards. Can people pass the fit test should they choose to wear a beard? Yes. Is it safe? The answer is an unqualified NO! The potential for compromise in dynamic events is deemed unnecessary and extraordinary.
-Still don't like the answer? Design a better mouse trap.
-Signed, a mustache wearing Brother.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brenda Tenney on January 24, 2009 at 8:32pm

Man ,am glad am and woman fire fighter...But,yes we have to go by the rules.OSHA.....
Wayne Benner Jr (Casper) said:

Ive wrote on this subject before when someone asked why they could not wear their beard as it was part of their religion. The reason was simple rules and regulations for SAFETY reasons are written in black and white and if ignored by the fire service or firefighters them selves, we wont be able to keep protecting our members when they dont want to help themselves.
Here in Canada (Where the igloos are) we too have the same rules. However I will say when it comes to the mustache you are not breaking the rules it states no hair will interfer with the seal of the facepeice. So for a chief to state no one is allowed facial hair is simply wrong. Is it in writing? Is it a SOG. If it is then follow it if not ask why.

So this is what the US OSHA says:
Facepiece seal protection.
1910.134(g)(1)(i)
The employer shall not permit respirators with tight-fitting facepieces to be worn by employees who have:
1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A)
Facial hair that comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function; or

So explain where it states a mustache is not allowed. So if the Mustache is neatly trimmed and does not interfer with the face seal the problem is what? And yes the who cares attidude needs to Stop. Who cares? howabout the firefighters that are dying from cancers ask them and their familes who cares????

On the fire ground we talk about COMMEN SENSE.....I think it comes into place here as well

Stay Safe.
Wayne

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