You're first due to this fire, now what?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 1, 2008 at 9:54pm

Todd,
Thanks for adding to the page! Good job on the solution!!
I like the idea that the 360 is around a small building. It can be done quickly and it tells us alot about the situation, both inside for persons still possibley alive and where the fire looks to be. I like the reading of smoke conditions on all four sides and comparing what is seen to each of the other views. Wherever the smoke is pushing out is where it is seated (If we can see the push of smoke from outside). I guess, I'm old school in a sense, where there is smoke, there is fire. Let's talk about venting first.

If we see the smoke in the front of the building but not pushing out more than sides 3C or 4B what will happen if we vent some windows on sides 3C or 4B? What do you think?

Vertical venting may be difficult with only 5 total members on the scene. I know it's only a short ladder raise to the roof but how long before the engine team enters the building? 2 minutes after arrival? Can we get the roof vented in about that time or would we still be cutting after the fire is knocked down?




Todd Trudeau said:

Like Jim, I'm not an officer yet but I'm trying to learn as much as I can before hand. Alot can be said for getting a variety of different thoughts and tactics from anywhere you can. It helps (me anyhow) formulate my own approach to different scenerios. This will be my first post, hopefully I don't hack it up to much.

With that said, I'll take a crack at it...

This appears to be a very small occupancy, no basement and a very low pitched "flat"roof. 2 or 3 room cabin? During the 360, do any of the other windows offer any information? If it appeared the whole structure was charged with heavy smoke, that would seem to be helpful in determining the survivabilty aspect. If thats the case, venting a window on side 3 or 4 (preferably) could be coordinated with the attack through the front door.

On the other hand, vertical venting seems like the logical answer. With the low roof and the interior ceiling probably attached right to the rafters, could this roof be vented with limited risk and effort? From the short video I tend to think it could be. Are there any natural vents that would assist us to speed up the process? Can't tell from the video. This allows all the crap to go up and out away from us and any possible victim. I may even try hydraulic venting through the roof if we got the opening big enough. I think if the pressure inside the structure is substantial (as it appeared to be), any opening in the roof system would begin relieving it immediately.

I think hose line selection would vary with what type of ventilation I opt for. The vent done in the video indicates that a 2 1/2 probably should be stretched. Again though, this appears to be about the size of a one car garage maybe. But I do wonder if vertical ventilation was done, the backdraft would be prevented thus the entire structure wouldn't become involved to the extent that it did allowing for 1 3/4 at the door into the front room.

OK, now I'm counting on you guys to help me out and let me know how I did. Todd

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 1, 2008 at 10:07pm

Dustin
Thank you for adding to the page!
In your travels, how many rooms of fire have you found that a 1 3/4 stream can control? I like to think of it as 1 - 3 rooms in a residence. I know that when I'm working on an engine company (I'm a floating Lt. - not assigned to an specific engine or truck but to a district) we have the correct flow of water for the knockdown when the fire goes out in about 15- 30 seconds after we open the nozzle. It may take some more effort and time if there are special conditions like if it is wind driven from an open window or an accelerant spread has been spread through out the structure to start it. But generally it's knocked down in about that time above.
With a residence we take each room individually so the critical flow of water can be reached by the 1 3/4 line, the 2 1/2 may be over kill in such a small building.
Dustin
Where would you attack the fire from? Which side of the building?
Also can we vertically vent the building in a timely manner with just 5 total members on the scene?
I mean while the engine team needs it, before the fire is knocked down.
What do you think?

Dustin Miller said:

I am by no means an officer either...if i'm rolling up to this small of structure with somewhat minimal smoke (initially) I would not think to pull a 2 1/2. Not saying that thats the right answer, but I wouldn't think to pull it. I do agree with Mike in the fact that ventilation especially vertical vent is a dying art and has to be done and more importantly done correctly and effeciently. Ventilation is the best thing to do in order to save lives (just my opinion). What kills people?...heat, smoke, oxygen deprevation. What does venting do? Reduces all of these things. I also like the that it was mentioned that we don't know until we search if there is sustainable life. Especially in today's society...cars in the drive way, time of day, type of residence, etc. are not accurate indicators of occupancy. Still think you have to search EVERY TIME. Maybe not in the fire room, but a good size up will give a good indication of rooms that have conditions for life. Just because fire is blowing out of every front window, if the occupants run to the back room or bath room and close the door, then that room may still be survivable. Again a complete 360 and looking at all indicators and not just the initial ones make all the difference in the world.

Permalink Reply by Dustin Miller on December 2, 2008 at 2:21pm

Lt,
This is going to be said with quite a bit of inexperience but here's what I'm considering in line selection and assignment. Every department is different with different standards and interpretations of 2 in 2 out. If I ran it by the book...even in a single family residence with "heavy fire", i would consider pulling a 2 1/2 with a smooth bore. Here's my reasoning...Two guys on the line, one guy at the door humping hose, officer grabs a hook and takes a couple of windows, and the your engineer. The smooth bore makes it easier for your guys inside and provides plenty of water to make a quick knock. This is one of the only ways that I can see maintaining 2 in 2 out (which by the way I think is B.S. but it's what we have I guess). If its a couple of small rooms, I would reconsider and may just stay with 1 3/4. Without allot of manpower I think I would rather give my guys too much water than them come up short.

With enough man power, I think that a 1 3/4 is good for three rooms. I am a big fan of pulling a couple of 1 3/4's inside if you have the manpower. Sure as hell beats humping 2 1/2 through a house.

As for can you vertically ventilate with five people on scene...I think that you can absolutely efficiently vertically vent on a single family residence, IF you are not a complete stickler for 2 in 2 out as defined by the book. If I'm running the fireground in the video, I without a doubt send two to the roof. Bottom line is you have to vent that house. Conditions tend to change priorities, and I think that you have to vent that house before you stretch a line inside. You don't save life or property in this video unless you get this heat and smoke out of the building.

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on December 2, 2008 at 4:05pm

Jim,
I'm thinking there may be a window on side 4 (D), assuming that it could be like the neighboring structure in the video but don't know for sure. If there is and it's obviously another window in the front room, the attack could be from the door across the room and out the window. Otherwise there's the chance of sending the fire into other rooms if the doors are open and using a fog.

I think a crew that is prepared and well lead can vent the roof with 2 FF, 360 with the boss, stretch 1 3/4 preconnect with 1 FF and the engineer assisting with the stretch and then operate the pump. When the next crew arrives, the vent is done (or close to it), the attack line is in place, 2 in/2 out is then covered and PPV can be set up and a search started, water supply could be addressed too.

In my department, arriving with 3 on an engine and 2 on a medic ambulance is standard. The next station brings the same and then we have the IC. If everyone is in quarters at our 2 stations, we'll have 11 at a house fire. We have to pull "double duty" so to speak. We run with 750 gal tanks and pre-connects. Regarding the stretch, depending on the distance from the street, a pre-connect may not reach. We would pull a 3" with water thief and then connect to that with our attack line. This of course lenghtens the time and increases the manpower needs.

Once the roof is vented, I'm thinking it buys some time in regards to fire spread inside the structure. This roof looks like a possible sledge job to start with to get things moving out of the inside. Neatness and textbook size h*** not really the point if I'm trying to eleviate the smoke and possible backdraft. I've not been faced with this so what does the group think?
Todd
Jim Mason said:

Todd,
Thanks for adding to the page! Good job on the solution!!
I like the idea that the 360 is around a small building. It can be done quickly and it tells us alot about the situation, both inside for persons still possibley alive and where the fire looks to be. I like the reading of smoke conditions on all four sides and comparing what is seen to each of the other views. Wherever the smoke is pushing out is where it is seated (If we can see the push of smoke from outside). I guess, I'm old school in a sense, where there is smoke, there is fire. Let's talk about venting first.

If we see the smoke in the front of the building but not pushing out more than sides 3C or 4B what will happen if we vent some windows on sides 3C or 4B? What do you think?

Vertical venting may be difficult with only 5 total members on the scene. I know it's only a short ladder raise to the roof but how long before the engine team enters the building? 2 minutes after arrival? Can we get the roof vented in about that time or would we still be cutting after the fire is knocked down?




Todd Trudeau said:

Like Jim, I'm not an officer yet but I'm trying to learn as much as I can before hand. Alot can be said for getting a variety of different thoughts and tactics from anywhere you can. It helps (me anyhow) formulate my own approach to different scenerios. This will be my first post, hopefully I don't hack it up to much.

With that said, I'll take a crack at it...

This appears to be a very small occupancy, no basement and a very low pitched "flat"roof. 2 or 3 room cabin? During the 360, do any of the other windows offer any information? If it appeared the whole structure was charged with heavy smoke, that would seem to be helpful in determining the survivabilty aspect. If thats the case, venting a window on side 3 or 4 (preferably) could be coordinated with the attack through the front door.

On the other hand, vertical venting seems like the logical answer. With the low roof and the interior ceiling probably attached right to the rafters, could this roof be vented with limited risk and effort? From the short video I tend to think it could be. Are there any natural vents that would assist us to speed up the process? Can't tell from the video. This allows all the crap to go up and out away from us and any possible victim. I may even try hydraulic venting through the roof if we got the opening big enough. I think if the pressure inside the structure is substantial (as it appeared to be), any opening in the roof system would begin relieving it immediately.

I think hose line selection would vary with what type of ventilation I opt for. The vent done in the video indicates that a 2 1/2 probably should be stretched. Again though, this appears to be about the size of a one car garage maybe. But I do wonder if vertical ventilation was done, the backdraft would be prevented thus the entire structure wouldn't become involved to the extent that it did allowing for 1 3/4 at the door into the front room.

OK, now I'm counting on you guys to help me out and let me know how I did. Todd

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 2, 2008 at 9:41pm

Dustin and Todd
First call me Jim
Let's say that there is there is some one on th scene who says that they think there is someone in the building. That satisfies 2 in 2 out. In this case we have to enter the building to get water between the fire and person down for a rescue.

I like the 1 3/4 for moving from room to room in a residential when it doesn;t invovle more that 3 rooms. If it does, I like to have another 1 3/4 line in to back up or a 2 1/2. Here is how I know if we have brought a knife to a gun fight - if when hitting fire it goes out in about 15 - 30 seconds the criticla flow has been reached and the BTU's were over come by the water, if not we need the back up line to help. From experince I think about the size of the rooms that I'm going into. When we have EMS runs in these buildings I look at the size of the rooms and decide if a 1 3/4 would work or not. The smooth bore helps with the knock down for alot reasons also. We use mostly fog pipes on the small hand lines except the 2 1/2's. This is to fog it out after we knock it down.
Let's look at venting in the real time coodination of an incident such as this. How long would it take to get a h*** in the roof and how long would it take the hose team to get inside any door, you as the officer on the scene, choose to enter to start throwing water aroud for extinguishment? We have said that there might be some one alive inside so does that change the coordination of the venting with the extinguishment and the door you would enter first with the hose line? Let's think about it that way. What do you think?

Dustin Miller said:

Lt,
This is going to be said with quite a bit of inexperience but here's what I'm considering in line selection and assignment. Every department is different with different standards and interpretations of 2 in 2 out. If I ran it by the book...even in a single family residence with "heavy fire", i would consider pulling a 2 1/2 with a smooth bore. Here's my reasoning...Two guys on the line, one guy at the door humping hose, officer grabs a hook and takes a couple of windows, and the your engineer. The smooth bore makes it easier for your guys inside and provides plenty of water to make a quick knock. This is one of the only ways that I can see maintaining 2 in 2 out (which by the way I think is B.S. but it's what we have I guess). If its a couple of small rooms, I would reconsider and may just stay with 1 3/4. Without allot of manpower I think I would rather give my guys too much water than them come up short.

With enough man power, I think that a 1 3/4 is good for three rooms. I am a big fan of pulling a couple of 1 3/4's inside if you have the manpower. Sure as hell beats humping 2 1/2 through a house.

As for can you vertically ventilate with five people on scene...I think that you can absolutely efficiently vertically vent on a single family residence, IF you are not a complete stickler for 2 in 2 out as defined by the book. If I'm running the fireground in the video, I without a doubt send two to the roof. Bottom line is you have to vent that house. Conditions tend to change priorities, and I think that you have to vent that house before you stretch a line inside. You don't save life or property in this video unless you get this heat and smoke out of the building.

Permalink Reply by Eric Hankins on December 2, 2008 at 10:03pm

I like all of the posts I've read so far!!! Good stuff...

First of all to those that have stated that they are not officers. That doesn't matter. You are on this website just like the rest of us. To learn and share. There is nothing that says you can't make decisions just because you're not a Boss.. I expect my crew to make decisions. Thats what crews do. They are my extra eyes and ears.

Not for the scenario,


The line of demarcation on the door is key for me. I did not see it the first time I watched the video a few weeks back. This shows an obvious working fire (at one point) and the smoke is moderate at best, so it would appear that the fire building is fairly air tight..

We at YCFD do not have the staffing to focus on Vertical Vent so most of our primary venting is done by taking windows. With conditions presenting as they are in the video, I think I would switch our normal tactics and take my tailboard FF to the roof and cut a h*** while the Medic crew deployed an 1 3/4" handline.

We run 750 gallon booster tanks, so the 2nd due would be assigned to lay into our engine and assume RIT. Third due would assist with a second line if needed and begin search.

This is actually 2 more bodies than we would actually have on a first alarm so I am taking a few liberties with assignments. The Battalion is usually at scene within minutes so I would have him take Command.

Anyway, there isn't much need to go into more detail as it has pretty much been said already.

Great discussion Brothers,

Keep up the good work...

Eric

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 2, 2008 at 10:12pm

What if anything would change if a person on the scene said that there was some one inside?

cite>Eric Hankins said:

I like all of the posts I've read so far!!! Good stuff...

First of all to those that have stated that they are not officers. That doesn't matter. You are on this website just like the rest of us. To learn and share. There is nothing that says you can't make decisions just because you're not a Boss.. I expect my crew to make decisions. Thats what crews do. They are my extra eyes and ears.

Not for the scenario,


The line of demarcation on the door is key for me. I did not see it the first time I watched the video a few weeks back. This shows an obvious working fire (at one point) and the smoke is moderate at best, so it would appear that the fire building is fairly air tight..

We at YCFD do not have the staffing to focus on Vertical Vent so most of our primary venting is done by taking windows. With conditions presenting as they are in the video, I think I would switch our normal tactics and take my tailboard FF to the roof and cut a h*** while the Medic crew deployed an 1 3/4" handline.

We run 750 gallon booster tanks, so the 2nd due would be assigned to lay into our engine and assume RIT. Third due would assist with a second line if needed and begin search.

This is actually 2 more bodies than we would actually have on a first alarm so I am taking a few liberties with assignments. The Battalion is usually at scene within minutes so I would have him take Command.

Anyway, there isn't much need to go into more detail as it has pretty much been said already.

Great discussion Brothers,

Keep up the good work...

Eric

Permalink Reply by Eric Hankins on December 2, 2008 at 10:22pm

Jim,

Looking at the heat line on the door and depending on what I/we saw on a walk around, I would say that the possiblity of someone still alive insode would be slim. That being said, We are going to get in there and put the fire out and search in a hurry. The benefit of going vertical with the vent is hopefully the heat and smoke will lift quicker than taking the door and possibly (in the video) intinsifing the fire.

Our Engines areall fairly close so the water supply/RIT assignment could easily go to the third due engine. And RIT although not required would still be nice. Even if not a Formal RIT and second line to back up the first....


Also, That fire would darken down ALOT faster with a 1 3/4" line minimum. It almost looks as if the crew in the video is using a booster line...

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 2, 2008 at 10:37pm

As the first in officer, a supply line would be forward layed from the plug. 1 ff/emt would charge the 5", the other ff/emt and my stepman would advance our leader line to the rear of the structure while I completed my 360. I would rejoin my stepman and have my ff/emt's on my order, take the front windows completely, then force the door. My 2.5 could push the fire right out the front of the house. Due to the apparent headway the fire has made, no viable occupants are saveable, at least in my opinion, unless maybe they are laying at the back door, for a quick grab.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 3, 2008 at 9:39pm

I'm thinking if there was a report of some one inside they would have to be in the rear with a door closed. In that case would an entry into the rear with venting of the windows in front be a good thing to do? Then vent the roof. What do you think? With a report of some one trapped would the hose team wait for venting of the roof?

Eric Hankins said:

Jim,

Looking at the heat line on the door and depending on what I/we saw on a walk around, I would say that the possiblity of someone still alive insode would be slim. That being said, We are going to get in there and put the fire out and search in a hurry. The benefit of going vertical with the vent is hopefully the heat and smoke will lift quicker than taking the door and possibly (in the video) intinsifing the fire.

Our Engines areall fairly close so the water supply/RIT assignment could easily go to the third due engine. And RIT although not required would still be nice. Even if not a Formal RIT and second line to back up the first....


Also, That fire would darken down ALOT faster with a 1 3/4" line minimum. It almost looks as if the crew in the video is using a booster line...

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 3, 2008 at 9:42pm

Yeah Jeff. After the luxury of veiwing the video a couple of times I would think about going in the rear with horizontal venting of the front windows. Could a live person be laying in a bedroom with the door closed in the rear of the building? I think it's possible.

Jeff Schwering said:

As the first in officer, a supply line would be forward layed from the plug. 1 ff/emt would charge the 5", the other ff/emt and my stepman would advance our leader line to the rear of the structure while I completed my 360. I would rejoin my stepman and have my ff/emt's on my order, take the front windows completely, then force the door. My 2.5 could push the fire right out the front of the house. Due to the apparent headway the fire has made, no viable occupants are saveable, at least in my opinion, unless maybe they are laying at the back door, for a quick grab.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 3, 2008 at 9:45pm

Here's another question on the same thread. With a 360, could we decide to enter the rear by "reading the smoke conditions"? Even if we didnt get the report of a live vicitm inside. What do you think?
JIm
Jim Mason said:

Yeah Jeff. After the luxury of veiwing the video a couple of times I would think about going in the rear with horizontal venting of the front windows. Could a live person be laying in a bedroom with the door closed in the rear of the building? I think it's possible.

Jeff Schwering said:

As the first in officer, a supply line would be forward layed from the plug. 1 ff/emt would charge the 5", the other ff/emt and my stepman would advance our leader line to the rear of the structure while I completed my 360. I would rejoin my stepman and have my ff/emt's on my order, take the front windows completely, then force the door. My 2.5 could push the fire right out the front of the house. Due to the apparent headway the fire has made, no viable occupants are saveable, at least in my opinion, unless maybe they are laying at the back door, for a quick grab.

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