Peaked Roof Vent

Comment

Comment by Paul Lomske on October 29, 2008 at 11:15pm

Good related video that shows another way to skin a cat.
Vertical/Verticle Bay cut at Bob Smith's page.
http://community.fireengineering.com/video/video/show?id=1219672%3A...

Comment by Scott Kleinschmidt on October 29, 2008 at 8:03pm

Attic fire:( less time ) 4x4, open, a**** the vent if need to be bigger drop down and extend with 3 cuts as your leaving the roof and make it 4x8 then get off. Let the fire open it the rest of the way.
Content fire "more time on the roof" make it big! release the BTU's I agree with the prior post, 4x4 h***'s for residential are a good start point. Cut it, punch it ( ceiling ) get it venting and drop back working towards the safe side and make it bigger.

As for the "fan" they have a time and place. The problem is with most departments they treat it as a one stop ventilation method.




Great vid, Good Instruction

Comment by Wesley Stephens on October 28, 2008 at 4:31pm

I'm not saying that PPA is the only way just like I believe that there is no one definate way to attack every fire. I also believe that you should never stick a blower in the door if firefighters have already made entry, I've been on the recieving end of that situation.

I also agree that the fan is misused and in misusing hands it is dangerous, but I have also been in on using it properly in proper situations and can tell you from fighting fire many different ways that when appropriate PPA has been properly used the conditions weren't near as punishing.

I know this is a touchy subject to the fire service and I am not trying to turn this into a PPA v's Vertical conversation. I just try to educate myself in all aspects so that I can use the best tool for the situation.

Comment by Andrew Brassard on October 27, 2008 at 7:59pm

When it comes to the size of the h***, I personally would have no idea about the BTU release for the size of the opening. What I do know is that 5000 BTU’s pushing out of the opening are better than 5000 BTU’s staying inside of the structure.

I think that a 4x4 opening is a fantastic place to start but several factors are going to come into play, the pitch of the roof and conditions inside of the attic being two of the biggest.

If the pitch is steep or conditions inside of the attic are deteriorating then working off a roof ladder is going to be paramount. While working off a roof ladder you will definitely be limited on the size of the opening that you will be able to create. Bigger is better, but like in most cases with everything on this job you sometimes have to play the hand you are dealt and improvise, adapt, and overcome based on the types of buildings in your due and your department SOP’s and SOG’s.

Also most experienced firefighters that open up roofs on a regular basis will tell you that if you have a good working fire inside of the attic, if you cut a 4x4 by the time you get off the roof it will probably be 6x6!!

I still think that opening the roof, regardless of size or shape is better then not opening it.

Stay Safe Brothers,
Andrew

Comment by Mike Walker on October 27, 2008 at 6:11pm

The quality of this video was fantastic!

I wonder why he didn't mention punching the ceiling? Perhaps his department only vents a roof for an attic fire?

Comment by Joseph R Polenzani on October 27, 2008 at 5:02pm

I won't presume to speak for Trey, but a lot would depend on the size and location of the fire, condition of the roof and supporting structure, etc. IFSTA Essentials IV states that "(o)ne large opening, at least 4 x 4 feet, is much better than several small ones." I'd agree that 4' x 4' is a good starting point for may residential applications. One of the biggest advantages of a cut about this size is that you can work almost entirely on the roof ladder. If you watch Trey, he almost never leaves the ladder, except to stabilize his foot on the Halligan. Cutting an 8' x 6' h*** requires a lot more time off of the ladder and, given the junk "wood" we know is holding up many roofs, I'm inclined to err on the side of safety. Now, if you've got a solid roof and you know where the fire is...cut away, Bro!

Comment by Wesley Stephens on October 27, 2008 at 1:20pm

I think this is one of the better training videos that I've seen. He took extra care in pointing out all the details that alot of people take for granted and assume that other people know.

Now without sounding like I'm questioning his technique, because I know that this is just one example of how he works, I would like to ask a couple of questions.

I know that there are times for vertical ventilation and I perform them sometimes, although I am a firm believer and an instructor in possitive pressure attack. I believe that the size of the h*** should be more than 4x4. It is my understanding that the 4x4 h*** was determined a good size by Ben Franklin because it would release about 5000 BTUs of heat per minute. In the 50's this was ok because residential structure fires released between 5000 and 8000 BTUs. In todays fires heat release rates are anywhere from 10,000 to 16,000 BTUs because of the synthetic materials. So I can't see that a 4x4 is still sufficient, venting is vented. So if my math is even close a 8ft x 6ft h*** will release about 15,000 BTU's. Does anyone have an opinion on this because I have just begun experimenting with what size opening should be standard. I usually teach that when the smoke and fire aren't being forced out like a blowtorch then it is big enough so keep cutting until you get possitive results.

Also a technique I like to use when the roof's stability is questionable is to open the gable end like a doorway from the top of the peak to the top of the wall about 4ft wide. This has enabled us to operate without being directly over the fire and is easy to seal up afterwards.

Keep up the great work.

Comment by Paul Lomske on October 27, 2008 at 4:33am

Good video!
Trey Nelms is like a Southern version of Mike Ciampo.
Tool and inspection h*** cameras give a different view.