tactical question

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on October 13, 2008 at 10:44pm

Here we go....Don't beat me too bad!

There are many things to think about when pulling up to this building knowing that your truck is going to be assigned ventilation:

#1 - By the looks of it you have a large lightweight metal building, probably used for boat storage/repair. You can probably guess that the interior of the building has large open space with little or any partitioning.

#2 - Knowing that this is a lightweight metal building vertical ventilation is probably out of the question due to the roof being thin metal. You could vent from a ladder or bucket, but those holes tend to be less than desireable.

#3 - Once you have decided that horizontal ventilation is the way to go you know that you will need a large volume of air to remove the contaminants, due to the large open space of the structure. Probably the best option will be a vehicle or trailer mounted fan. Some of these fans will push upwards of 750,000 CFM of fresh air.

#4 - With the wind blowing the way it is in the structure you would need to find an opening on the oppostie side of the building whether it be a large door like the one in the picture (with the ability to be closed to create a smaller opening), a series of windows, man-doors or an opening created with saw operations. The opening on the opposite side should be 3/4 to 2 times smaller than the opening on the smoke evacuation side, this will allow for pressurization to occur. Also, the exhaust opening should be as close to the seat of the fire as possible.

#5 - Since the picture shows a cold, clear day you will have little problems with horizontal ventilation of this structure, especially having the opening on the windward side of the structure. Complications can arise on warm, humid days with little air movement, also rainy days will tend to keep the smoke from evacuating efficiently due to the cooling of the smoke.

All of this needs to be thought of in a quick manner!!

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 16, 2008 at 11:57am

Chris
I'm not going to beat you up. The tactics are good. But like the old saying "Can we talk?" Let's define it a bit more. The "newly promoted chief" says" Vent the building" . He's basically leaving it up to you to decide how to do it. Right? What other than the actual tactics should we consider?
Let's think in terms of coordinating the venting with the extiguishment. You're the decider (company officer) on how and what to do. Is the chief any help with this order at all?
What could be burning inside the building?
Also what would it take to get the h*** in the right spot? Are there things that we can use to help us decide on the vent h*** position? What does the hose stretch tell us, if anything? Is there any thing else we can think of? What if the engine went in one side and you want to vent the other, what do we do now?
Jim

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 16, 2008 at 12:00pm

Barry
You bring up some good points. The question to ask is :Where is the fire compared to the door shown? Can we confirm it and how? Do we even need to confrim it ? When throwing ladders at this fire where would you put them? And what would the FF's on the ladders need to do? What would be the considerations and communications (if any) that should be made if another h*** was to be cut in a different part of the building? Take a look at what we talked about on the reply to Chris. What do you think on these points. You are the decider on the ventliation company, so again, what would you consider? There's no trick question here, it's just using our experince and imagination on what we see and making a prediction, like in a size up question, on what will happen in the next few minutes.
Jim

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on October 17, 2008 at 11:23am

Jim,

First off I would have to say that the BC here is going to be little help to you. He has so much other crap to worry about that once he gives you your assignment to vent it is yours.

I would guess that this is a boat storage facility and there is some type of boat inside ripping away. To get the vent h*** in the right place you could approximate where the seat of the fire is on the opposite side of the building or you could do some recon from the upwind side of the building. With the venting the way it is right now I would venture to guess that the conditions on the opposite side of the building are not to bad. Also the column of smoke does not seem to be taking up the whole exhaust area to enable you to get a good idea of where the seat of the fire is.

The hose stretch is another indicator of what is going on inside as well. If there is only one lead out you could assume that heat and fire conditions are not that bad as compared to if there were multiple leads out. Coordination with the engine company is very important, especially if they will be entering from the opposite side. Let them get to the seat of the fire before opening up will save you an A$$ beating when they come out.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 21, 2008 at 4:24pm

Yeah , the chief is busy and he's new , that's the problem here and a common thing on the fire ground. The chief has his hand's full with problems not concerning your truck company. Your ventilation will help with his problems if you can get it right. Just like any thing on the fire ground , though, we need to be at least mostly right to be effective. It' not brain surgery here.

Getting an estimate of the location from the engine offcier or even the pump operator would be a good place to start. Here's why - Both of these members will need to be in contact with each other so they can get a good flow of water. You know - correct flow and friction loss, stuff like that. In Chicago we paint numbers each hose length. It is written down and the paper is carried on the engine. So for example, if 2 1/2 inch length number 325 was the last one outside the building, the pump operator could look up that number and he would know that the hose team has 300 feet of hose off the engine.
We would definetly want to coordinate the venting with the engine. I would say let them know what you are going to do before you open up. Like you're saying they might not want it opened up until they are ready. In the radio communications it might also take confirming what side they entered into and the wind direction compared to their position before opening up so they are not on the down wind side of the fire. Or at least they could re-position before they say they want venting. Good Job

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on October 27, 2008 at 3:09pm

I think you must go through the same size up process as you would as first on scene. You have to look at what has already taken place prior to you getting there. Depending on how you vent will either help or not. Hopefully you have been listening to radio transmissions on where the fire is or thought to be, if the engine has led out yet, secure water, etc. You must consider building construction. From the picture you can see the big door. Hopefully there is one on the other side to open. You have to consider the wind direction and speed when doing this. If the wind is not on your side this can also feed the fire. Being from an commercial/industrial town, a lot of commercial building have ventilation systems that will blow out, skuttle hatches or skylights. Talking to someone that works there will be a big help in the process. When ventilating, you must be in communication with the engine officer. Maybe the venting that is happening right now will be enough.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 28, 2008 at 1:29pm

Yeah Jim
Listening to the radio is very important to what is needed by the interior team. I like to do a first due radio report that would actucally say "this is where the fire is" (at least we think it's here) This building is big and not making that call from the engine officer could have the truck comapny make things worse with venting the structure. Getting someone on the scene who knows the place is also a good idea.
Like you are saying asking what the engine officer needs is a great call on this one. We don;t want to make this one worse with our actions.
What do you think about going to the roof to cut a h***?

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on October 28, 2008 at 3:15pm

I think that depends on the building construction, the extent of the fire and manpower. I've seen buildings like that are steel bar truss and others that are not. They have huge steel beams. Some pre planning would tell you this. Depending how well the fire is going and where it is burning would also dictate your decision. Lastly your manpower situation would need to be considered. Opening a roof in a commercial building is going to be more manpower intensive than a residential building.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 4, 2008 at 1:13am

Hi Jim. I agree with the coordinated vent/attack tactic. In some instances it will not always be possible though. And, this upsets some firefighters, I don't feel it is necessary to delay venting while waiting for water.
Will that intensify the fire; sure. But only momentarily. And in reality, it may just make things easier on the engine. Sure the fire will light up, but in so doing, the fire becomes that much easier to find.
Also, it will improve interior conditions for anyone trapped inside.
This is in keeping with John Norman's principals of taking those actions which protect the greatest number of lives as well as the first concept, when there is not sufficient manpower to mount a combined attack, then rescue efforts which include ventilation tactics must be given priority.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 7, 2008 at 1:53pm

Yeah Jim
The roof might be held up by bar joist and it might take some big time effort to get a h***. We might not even be able to get the truck close enough to reach the roof in this fire.