When do we say enough?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on December 8, 2008 at 4:35pm

When the building is fully involved
When the building is placarded 2/2/1 and the smoke is an unusual color
If I am given information that the building is condemned due to stability reasons
If I hear gunshots inside
Major roof involvement on a Bow String truss roof
If I have 55-gallon barrels blowing through the roof

Those are the obvious ones that initially come to mind

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 8, 2008 at 4:54pm

Ok Jim... I'll take the hit on this one and kick this topic off.

Firstly, I like your observation that leadership is subjective and sometimes comes from below. I am a firm believer that men follow true leaders regardless of rank, especially in moments of crisis. Rank does not a leader make. Though in principle it should. And there are many fine examples of leaders from the highest to the lowest ranks.

The fire department is a para military organization and just like in the army, many times it is the sergeants that influence the decision making process as well as insuring that those orders are carried out. After all, they have the luxury/curse of being in that cross over territory of seeing actual conditions as well as watching plans formulate and understand better than most what in fact will work in reality. In the fire service those sergeants are the very senior members. They are the ones with the milage and experience.

Now for the discussion question. I think I know what you're driving at. This is the scenario that, if face to face with it, the decisions come easy and quickly. You could definitively say yes or NO WAY. And yet it is much harder to define this intangible decision making quality, based on a combination of training, study and experience, than I first assumed.

In a nutshell we should say no to the interior firefight if firefighter lives will be needlessly endangered. For the purposes of conducting a search we must ask, Is the interior environment incompatible with human life? And is the structural stability compromised beyond safe operations?
In short, is there a chance that anyone is still alive inside, and if so, will the structure hold up while we enter to perform a search and/or suppression and supportive efforts?

What are the heat and smoke conditions? Can they be addressed, corrected or even circumvented? What is the structural stability of the occupancy? What are the resources available? Manpower- their training and experience? The list of variables is truly endless and could require months of debate yet the decision must be made immediately.

When I teach I like to use a mantra familiar to many of us for the risk/benefit analysis, with a slight modification. We will risk a lot to save a life, we will risk a little to save property and we will risk nothing to save that which is already gone.

Stay safe, BRICK

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on December 8, 2008 at 5:10pm

Ever watch spiderman when he got a tingly spidersence? To me when you have that little WTF in the back of your head, trust it.
As was listed by Mike, I too would back off. Firefighter Safety first
However Im hearing to often around the fire service that if there are no persons inside, we should just conduct exterior operations as they will probally just take down and rebuild. Yes a house can be rebuilt but the personal effects of the occupant can not. If its lost when on arrival then so be it, but if we have a chance in hell to save life or property SAFELY then do the job were trained for as it will be your training and spidy sences that will tell you when its time to go defensive. As an upcoming officer I will never question a crew be it a firefighter or officer if they backed out or simply didnt feel it was right to enter, as long as after the call they could explian their actions. A simple routine alarm can go sour quickly.

This very question raised is asked on almost all Job interviews Ive been on. The answer they want is to speak up and then let the officer decide if its the right call or not? So Ive been told.

WBenner

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 8, 2008 at 6:36pm

Ok, So it's FF's first and civilans next, then property. Risk vs benefit. Risk alot, risk little, risk nothing. I agree and they are good sayings! But then, how come guys are dying in these buildings? Is anybody responsible for these traumatic deaths?
You're the firefighter on the nozzle today, so what do you do when the chief tells your engine officer to go in this well involved 1 story, commercial building with a 1 1/2 hose line?
Is it just a feeling? Is it a real analysis of the situation?
Is it a report from ther rear? From the roof? Do we not communicate well enough? Do members not understand what is meaningful to report from different positions on the fire ground?
What happens when we are already inside, is there anything that will tell us enough or MUST the IC always order us out?
Is it an elusive quality that cannot be taught? Has anybody every written off a live victim? When and Why?

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 8, 2008 at 11:42pm

Jim, you asked something very important. At the base level you are asking, Is it possible to disregard or disobey an order if you feel it will injury or kill you or another? The answer is an unqualified YES.

In fact, in our SOG's we have a specific clause that says exactly that. An order may be disregarded if the receiving member believes that the actions ordered will harm him. Naturally there will be a lot of questions asked later, but if you are in the right and can defend your position then there will be hell to pay for the individual who issued the erroneous directive.

I do believe there are times when the interior operating members can, have and should terminate there actions and not wait for someone outside and down the block to tell them enough is enough. They are in a good position to make this call. If you are a professional and can explain your actions to the IC then there shouldn't be any problems. It is called situational awareness.

Operating inside should dictate that these members are hyper aware of their surroundings and not functioning on tunnel vision or raw emotion. Will we see everything? No, but that doesn't release us from the responsibility of remaining in control of our emotional status and making professional, detached decisions.

So, let me ask the question that Jim is driving at. Would you ignore, debate or disregard an order if you felt it was a dangerous command that would injury you or your teammates? Would you really, honestly have the strength to question an order on scene?

Stay safe.

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on December 9, 2008 at 12:40am

I think one of the biggest things to think about when dealing with folks is that a lot of them are NOT ALLOWED to think on their own. There are plenty of departments around the world that are firm believers in the "it came from above, so I must do it mentality" I was recently in a class that challenged folks to think outside of the box and during the first day into the second one of the ffs in my group was looking at the leader of the group wondering what to do. When he was finally asked about it he told us that he did whatever the officer told him to do without question and the rest of us just sat there with a dumbfounded look...That is scary!!

For me I am just echoing what others have said so far, it is total risk benefit. Am I going to take my crew into a building where I know that no victim could survive due to the conditions or the chances of my crew members getting hurt for a worthless cause?? Hell No!! John Norman writes about the two different pieces of life safety at a fire...Us and Them with Us always coming first!

Then why are there still firemen dying in buildings that should have never been entered? Go back to the first part of this post and that pretty much sums it up. Second is the ego factor, there are firemen out there writing checks that their a**** can't cash. This may be due to their lack of experience or simply due to the fact that they think they are all of that and a bag of chips

I am also a firm believer that there are many more leaders without bars or bugles than there are with them. You know who your leaders are on your crew, your shift and your department. I bounce a lot of things off folks that I trust and this would definitely be one of them. Knowing who you can go to in a situation like this is a huge advantage. I would much rather get yelled at by a bugle for not doing what he ordered me to do than to tell a wife, mother or child that I am sorry for their loss.

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on December 9, 2008 at 10:16am

I think Jim has hit on the head. COMMUNICATION
I find that not many officers are conducting their size-ups. The interior crews not reporting their conditions from inside and same goes with the exterior crews. I personnaly believe if you feel conditions dont warrent entry then relate them to the IC/Officer etc. That couple minutes of debate may be all you need as the conditions can worsen quickly and your point is now visible.

Have you seen the VES video of the Indy Captain? He did his job and many jump all over him for doing it. Yes it was a close call, but if we attack those for doing their job what are we going to do for those who refuse to their job? Maybe thats why firefighters/officers dont speak up.

We spend so much time on Rapid Intervention and FF survival and less on Building construction and fire behaviour the real course on firefighter survival. (My Opinion)
We concentrate so mucn more on the alarms we run most often (Medical, Auto-ex) and not enough on Fire suppression? Maybe this is why firefighters are dying. Whens the last time a Chief or officer has had training. I dont mean out of a text book either.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 9, 2008 at 3:39pm

I agree with all of what you guys are saying. How about communciations on the fire ground. Wayne says communicate ,YES! Brick, you say we can't see everything inside, YES! Chris, you say guys need to think, YES! Do guys, other than the IC, know what to communicate on the fire ground? The things that must be communicated that will change the operation from interior to defensive. I'm just wondering what or how do we need to teach to so guys, that are in a position to relay something important to the rest of the members on the scene, will do just that.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 9, 2008 at 5:04pm

-The first step is to make sure all personnel are radio equipped and know how to properly use the radio, tac channel, emergency bypass features and are fluent in the local radio jargon/vernacular/ten code.
-Secondly, there should be an accepted department procedure for speaking on/broadcasting on the radio.
-Lastly, firefighters need to avoid being radio shy as well as turning into chatty Cathy's. if you see something that looks important to you or you think someone should know about it, for God's sack do not keep it a secret.
-One of the things that I repeatedly run in to while teaching is companies being assigned a job/task/function, completing said task and not telling anyone that they have completed/not completed the task and what the status is of said task and their availability or their specific needs.
-For example, if a Ladder Company is assigned to primary search and they carry it out and find no one/nothing they need to transmit that information over the fire ground channel so ALL operating companies and the IC know the progress of the operation and can change/adapt or adjust their tactics and tasks accordingly.
-If, for example, the same Ladder Company is unable to enter the structure to carry out the ordered search because of serious fire conditions or deplorable smoke conditions, the Ladder Co. needs to stop and advise the IC that they are unable to complete their ordered function. By making this transmission via the fire ground channel, some other may be able to mitigate conditions or take up that incomplete function. Of course they would naturally advise command to avoid free lancing.
-Communication, everyone being radio equipped and empowered to transmit information and an awareness given through training and empowering to have the courage to say a task is unachievable given current conditions and/or resources.
-Say what you see. Give the situation, the IC, yourself and your teammates the benefit of a real life, no BS assessment of the situation, THEN ask for what you need.
-Stay safe, BRICK

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 9, 2008 at 8:42pm

With building construction theway it is now, that is going to be a primary concern. I honestly don't think this a skill that you're taught. Regardless of rank, everyone gets that little guy on their shoulder, telling you it's not a good idea. My firefighters saftety is tops in my mind. A well involved structure, we need to look at Risk vs Benefit. I guess, to me, the old saying of we risk alot, to save alot, risk a little to save a little, we risk nothing to save nothing applies. We have a fair amount of engineered truss floors, in our area, as well as light weight truss roofs, Thankfully, I've never been placed in this position, but I won't hesitate to keep my guys or gals out of a loser.

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on December 9, 2008 at 9:44pm

I think the trend of less and less fires and therefore less fireground experience plays a large role in knowing when to say "defensive". In my time on the job, there are the "officers with benefits" that want us pipeman to ask questions (to a degree at the appropriate times) to learn and take the initiative to be a leader so to speak. Then there are the officers that don't want to hear from "just a fireman" and want you to do it because they said so. I prefer the officer with benefits! Anyhow, the result is we almost have to count on the officer to make the right call, whether they take input or not. Ultimately, a crew with a knowledgeable and experienced officer will be able to learn from him/her and be able to decide (independently and as a crew) when things are not going to be succesful. The "experienced" part is more difficult to rely on though. Book work is good, but nothing beats getting dirty and learning.
I agree with Wayne that the public relys on us to protect them AND their property. Property gets less risk obviously but the effort should be made (in the right conditions) and not just written off. I know I have belongings that can't be replaced.
As far as FF's dying in these interior attacks....at times I wonder if departments get so focused on paperwork, grants, newest gadgets on the market and administrative stuff, they lose sight of the basic's of the job, TRAINING.

Permalink Reply by Chris Fleming on December 9, 2008 at 10:51pm

Excellent question, Jim! The answers I'm reading are even better!! As a company officer, I've had very new firefighters tell me, "My job is to follow orders" and I get discouraged. As I try and explain to those guys, thinking is EVERY firefighter's job. I think the buzz phrase for this is Crew Resource Management. This boils down to looking out for each other. I'm finding out good leadership is all about relationships. If I have your trust, and vice versa, I feel ok with pointing something out that I'm unsure about and we can work from there. Trust is the most important thing in this business. I think the biggest impediment to trust is ego. The guy you can't tell anything to is a liability on the fireground, because he's going to miss a big part of the size up picture. Likewise, if we don't give firefighters the fortitude to speak up and pass information to the I.C. we are tying one hand behind our back.

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