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Line selection is light-weight wood frame multiple dwellings

I would like some input on your departments line selection on light weight wood frame multiple dwelling. The buildings in question usually range from 4 to 6 stories in hight and are equipped with a standpipe system. So the question is do you stretch the 1 3/4 for speed or the 2 1/2 for the standpipe operation. Do you even use the standpipe or do strech up the outside of the building. The volume of fire would be room and content.

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RayPermalink Reply by Ray on November 22, 2008 at 7:59am
I think you should forget about the standpipe and also the line up the outside. Modify at least one of your hosebeds to handle a long stretch and practice stretching to the fire floor.
Permalink Reply by Bob Shovald on November 22, 2008 at 1:23pm
We use 2 1/2" w/ 1 1/4" SS for any standpipe connection. We train regularly with the 2 1/2" so we see very little delay in deploying the line. With a break away nozzle we can quickly extend the line with 1 3/4" when we get to mop up and o'haul mode. The thought process here is if the building has a standpipe system installed in it, it is a high risk building and the standpipes are designed for use with 2 1/2". We have standpipe packs made of lightwieght hose. The packs are assembled where 3 personnel can quickly move and set up the line. But don't forget to have a plan B. Like Ray says you may need to stretch from the bed in our case we may need to do that if we are in a reserve engine. Always have a plan B and maybe a C if needed.

Stay safe!
Bob
RayPermalink Reply by Ray on November 22, 2008 at 4:33pm
In the example you could do either stretch, however when you do a standpipe stretch you are adding another delivery element into the mix. The standpipe system better be working correctly or you'll have wasted a lot of time. Standpipe stretches should not be undertaken if the hand stretch is within reach.
PJ LangmaidPermalink Reply by PJ Langmaid on November 23, 2008 at 1:43am
From what I recall you gave us a very specific set of objectives to include mostly Engine work and very little Truck work. So if you will allow me to remove your set of objectives and qualifiers I would like to be very frank and honest with what I would do and expect done arriving at your: Five story light weight wood frame, 50x75 occupied multiple dwelling standpipe equipped, fire is showing out of 2 windows on the 4th floor your initial response consists of 3 engines with 3 firemen on each, 1 ladder with 3 firemen and a rescue with 2 firemen.

Arrive on scene, request additional alarms and/or mutual aid. 1 truckie gets to the roof. First and second engines supply primary attack line stretched from the Engine up interior stairwell to the fire floor and fire unit. 2 truckies have proceeded ahead to locate fire, confine fire if possible, and identify best stretch route. They will search from there and then head upstairs if needed. If needed the third engine co will also assist with the initial stretch and insure success. Rescue Co will fit into the picture where they are most needed upon arrival.

Let's face it, if the fire does not go out we will be in trouble here. People seem to want to do everything for everybody, but if there are not enough resources then you have to do the most good for the most people that you can. Simply put the fire out. I do not care how many guys I need to put on a line to insure success. I care about success. Winning is not a sometimes thing...it is an all the time thing. In this scenario I would forego all the Incident Command stuff and even RIT/FAST if this is truly an occupied structure with life safety as priority. The fire must go out. Rescue guys upstairs are not going to do that. A second line won't make it...if the first can't even be stretched properly.

So this is what I would expect of myself and the members with me. I hope this offers you some sort of answer. It just seemed as if you wanted to accomplish everything with next to nothing. I say skip the everything and focus on the biggest thing.
Permalink Reply by Anthony Riehl on November 23, 2008 at 11:13am
Ray McCormack said:
I think you should forget about the standpipe and also the line up the outside. Modify at least one of your hosebeds to handle a long stretch and practice stretching to the fire floor.
Stretching a 3in with a gated wye or a water thief up the side of the building to the floor below and then stretching off that has proved to be effective and fast in our department.
RayPermalink Reply by Ray on November 24, 2008 at 9:30am
What window does the line go into?
Permalink Reply by Anthony Riehl on November 24, 2008 at 8:28pm
Ray McCormack said:
What window does the line go into?
We use it in Class 3 OMD's and use the half landing window or if not available an apartment on the floor below window. The operation goes surprisingly fast when you have a good engine company.
PJ LangmaidPermalink Reply by PJ Langmaid on November 25, 2008 at 1:11pm
Anthony, You asked us for our input and now I feel it is your turn. What would your FD do with your examples?
Permalink Reply by Anthony Riehl on November 25, 2008 at 4:15pm
My department is currently using 2 1/2 for these building I am not in favor of this. I would prefer 1 3/4 as a first line backed up with the 2 1/2.My reasoning for this is speed and manuverability. Over the last few years we've had several residential high rise fires and after speaking to the 1st due nozzlemen I realized the difficulty with the 2 1/2 in residential occupancies given our manpower.Now structuraly a fire resistive OMD is more forgiveing then a light weight wood frame OMD (I think we can all agree on that) here in lies the basis of my argument against the 2 1/2 as the initial attack line.
PJ LangmaidPermalink Reply by PJ Langmaid on November 25, 2008 at 4:30pm
Are they stretching off a standpipe?

Anthony Riehl said:
My department is currently using 2 1/2 for these building I am not in favor of this. I would prefer 1 3/4 as a first line backed up with the 2 1/2.My reasoning for this is speed and manuverability. Over the last
few years we've had several residential high rise fires and after
speaking to the 1st due nozzlemen I realized the difficulty with the 2
1/2 in residential occupancies given our manpower.Now structuraly a
fire resistive OMD is more forgiveing then a light weight wood frame
OMD (I think we can all agree on that) here in lies the basis of my
argument against the 2 1/2 as the initial attack line.
Permalink Reply by Anthony Riehl on November 25, 2008 at 5:31pm
As of now yes.
RayPermalink Reply by Ray on November 26, 2008 at 5:27pm
I'm going to a lot more high rise fires than I thought!

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