You're first due to this fire, now what?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joe Heim on October 25, 2008 at 7:19pm

1. Locate nearest hydrant, secure water supply, conduct a 360 and give radio report to incoming companies and up the alarm level, again we are a small department, so we always call for more help
2. TIme of day, what is in the yard or driveway cars, toys, bikes, etc. This will give indictation if anyone is possibly in the home
3. Have ambulance crew pull a line, due to being short staffed a 2.5" with smooth bore tip, also the potential is there to have a big fire, always remember big fire = big water
4. Force the door, but control it until line has water and is bled off, this buys time and limits the amount of air the fire gets
5. Make note of change in conditions when door is forced, whispy gray smoke changed to thick black turbulant smoke with good push behind it, also the another good indication is the amount of air that is rushing in close to the ground
6. Give additional information over radio of conditions after the door is forced
7. Knock down the main body of fire and advance when other companies arrive and are ready to back the intial response up

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on October 25, 2008 at 10:02pm

The first thing I would do is to do a good size up of the building. When you pull up you can see grayish smoke pushing from the eaves across the entire front of the house (in areas the smoke is coming out pretty forcefully), the charring on the door indicates a high heat environment about a third of the way down the door (high probability of victim death inside). So, the first thing that i am going to want my crew to do is vertical ventilation. Medics to lead out with an 1 3/4" and stand by near the front door (until ventilation is complete), myself and the ff can throw a ladder and head to the roof to ventilate. By this point other companies should be arriving to secure a water supply and assist with attack.

Why? - By conducting vertical ventilation you will have the products of combustion going up and out, which will protect your ffs at the front door from the blow torch created by opening that door and creating the backdraft. Once vertical ventilation has been conducted ffs can then force the front door and begin to attack the fire. Not every situation is going to give you a nice change in conditions like this fire did.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 27, 2008 at 1:08pm

Yeah definetly get a source of water, size it up and report ( call for help). I like the big line also. It would be hard for the fire to win if we over power it.
Would you establish command or go to work with the crew?
How about a bit of venting ?
What if there was a report of persons inside? Does this change the plan?

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 27, 2008 at 1:13pm

Do the Emt/FF's have the time to vent vertically, quickly enough to be effetive for the hose teams' attack? The other crews bringing the water supply to the first due engine is excellant! Would you tell them on the radio what to do while they are enroute?
Would you establish command? Why or why not?
What about if there was a report of some one trapped inside? How does it affect this plan?

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on October 27, 2008 at 1:50pm

I am not an officer but I will take a crack at this one. As an officer you would perform your usual size up on the radio with the conditions you have. I would then state that the next arriving officer would be command or chief. I think it is impossible to be command if you are going in with your ff's. You can see the door is discolored so you know there is heat. I would tell my engine ff to start to lead out and 1 3/4 line to the door with my assistance. I would have my 2 ambo ff's act as a truck company with them venting the windows and then search. If I was not on a secure water source, I would report this to the next arriving engine. I think this is where SOG's with standard riding assignments would help this whole process completely. This is how our truck runs almost everyday. 3 on the truck followed by the ambo with 2. We have our riding assignments at the start of the day, so we know what are responsibilities are. They can change but it is a good start.
The question of taking command or going in with the crew seems to me is easy. I believe the ff's inside need leadership and a set of eyes of what is going on. They are task orientated and are usually focused on their job at hand.

Permalink Reply by Joe Heim on October 27, 2008 at 7:25pm

I would lead the crew and the second in company could take command, if we had a good idea of where the fire was I would vent that area and then attack the fire, as for a report of persons trapped, looking at the conditions the survivability is low, I think it would be better to knock the fire down, and then commence with the search. Five personnel on scene makes it very difficult to accomplish the needed tasks and I think fire extinguishment is the priority at this point.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 28, 2008 at 1:08pm

Yeah
I would work with the crew too. Not just because I still like getting dirty but becasue there aren't enough FF's initally to get the job done safely. When I think about persons inside to search for I like to get as good a report as possible. One thing I always think about is the reiliability of the report of persons trapped. Do you guys have any thoughts on that in your dept?
Venting would definetly be oreinted on the fire area. I think because it is a ground floor fire it is also a top floor fire. Same floor, I know but I think that helps us here becasue it is reachable and there is not extension up inside the building. Do you guys do an outside (Rear Firefighter in the CFD ) in your dept. for venting?

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 28, 2008 at 1:21pm

Good Job I believe Jim! Over all I think we do three things on the fire ground. It doesn;t matter if a chief tells us to run the entire operation or just pull ceiling in the bedroom at the end of the hall. We size up , decide what is wrong and fix it to the best of our ability. That's it. All the rest of it falls iinto one of these three catagories.
The IC position is good for the next due units. I think you working with the crew makes a difference in this situation and that is the price of admission working inside.
How would you decide on where the fire is so the ambo FF's could vent? What specifically would you do and/ or say to these FF's as the first due offcier?
What would you do if the cloest hydrant is down 300 feet from the fire buidling? How would that affect the operation?
One more question. You have worked as the officer with this crew for 6 months. Would you have talked about what to do if there is a bad hydrant?
How would you have advised them when this situation is found at a working fire scene as first engine? espically when you - the Company officer/ IC has gone into the fire building to work with the crew!

Permalink Reply by Joe Heim on October 28, 2008 at 1:40pm

Fortunately we don' t have too many fires with reports of people trapped. The biggest concerns are possible location, how many people live there, were they home, etc. We try to do our venting with an outside guy, especially coordinating it with the engine on the inside for attack.

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on October 28, 2008 at 2:08pm

I guess top side ventilation probably isn't the quickest...I would probably have them vent a window at the seat of the fire, just be careful doing it. We know what conditions probably are behind the door, so if venting a window I would make sure that they are off to the side and as soon as the window breaks to move back more.

During my initial report I would let the next engine company that they have water supply so they know as they are coming in. Our policies dictate that we establish command on arrival of the first company, but it would be a mobile command where i could operate inside with the crews until the buggy arrives.

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on October 28, 2008 at 3:38pm

I would have them vent the front windows. I think at that point the fire will come to you. You could use a thermal imager. A 360 size up will also help you I would tell them not to stand in front of the windows when venting them.
If the hydrant is 300 ft down the street you would have the second engine supply you and go quick water. Hopefully we would have drilled and know how long you have on tank water.
I think we would have drilled on hydrants and what I wanted them to do. If they encounter a bad hydrant they should immediately get on the radio and let the interior team know that they have a bad hydrant. This is going to be a problem and you may have to back out depending on how far apart your hydrants are spaced.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on October 29, 2008 at 7:28pm

Yeah Jim
It looks like the fire is in the front part of the house and the TIC would certainly help. I also like the 360 to compare sides of the building to each other. The hydrant down the street makes it hard on a small FF group. We do the reverse supply lay alot here in Chgo. It might be an option for you guys too but it takes some practice for communications nd the pump operator connecting to the hydrant himself.
The pump operator telling the interior team there is going to be a lose of water soon is a very good idea. Now those guys inside can plan for it

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