Vertical venting discussion.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 31, 2008 at 1:03pm

Thanks Mike

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 31, 2008 at 3:21pm

-Dave and Art have both brought up good points that dove tail each other.
-The simple fact of the matter is, the roof may have been a tenable position, the windows may or may not have been broken, there may or may not be good ladder placement.
-HOWEVER, at the time the video was shot the Truckmen should have been OFF the roof. The moment of tenability is gone and the conditions dictate that the Ladder Company get down. Period. They overstayed their welcome.
-This leads to another point.; the continual monitoring of conditions. Tunnel vision can affect anyone. We have all seen firemen that were so focused on what they were doing that the rest of the scene was just oblivious to them.
-I'm not saying these men suffered from tunnel vision but, the video certainly attests to the fact that someone wasn't paying attention to conditions.
-SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
-Stay safe,

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 31, 2008 at 4:05pm

This is a great discussion, but I have to stand by my post earlier. Given the conditions we see in the video, the guys don't belong on the roof. I have seen this video in many classes I have taken, both at FDIC and at our academy. Brian, I will try to find out where this fire was at and details if possible. Brick, all we need to do is go to a Scared Straight class, with Billy G. and we see way to many examples of our Brothers on a roof to long, or way to many firefighters on the roof. FFCC.Com has several in the gallery section alone.

Stay safe
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 31, 2008 at 8:00pm

-Jeff,
I couldn't agree more, as I said in earlier posts, albeit more gently and politely thank I probably should have given the nature of the reckless acts portrayed.
-I have sat in on Billy's classes several times and Chief Goldfeder and I have spoken several times about such matters as this very vide depicts. As Billy says in his class, "If you don't want to be on the internet doing something stupid then don't do stupid sh#t".
-I'm still waiting for someone to take up the challenge thrown down by Art Z regarding some type of intelligent argument defending the decisions and position. I guess no one has simply because it isn't possible to justify the actions.
-My personal feeling is that the video clip depicts the quintessential lack of Situational Awareness.
-Stay safe.
BRICK

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on January 1, 2009 at 7:49pm

Okay,

If you look real close there is a squirell trapped on the roof?

Sorry, that's as close to intelligent I can pull off today.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on January 1, 2009 at 7:56pm

Brick, I'll see Billy on the 9th of this month at a class, I'll see if he knows anything about that video and get a Billy opinion on it, but I think you said it like he would. We need to fight fire smart in today's times. I would never try to come up with an conversation about this with Art, because the only thing I could here is somebody saying, "The officer or Chief said to" Now were back to the name of the group, to answer that reply.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on January 2, 2009 at 1:03pm

-Chris, the comment was mine. I said that if you want to stand around and admire your work then become a painter.
-The video is great. Yup, just standin around on the roof watchin the fire burn.
-Fantastic. Get off the roof, let the IC know your off the roof and that your task has been accomplished and that you're ready to take on another job. Remember the manpower shortage thing?
-I was rereading an old Tom Brennen "Random Thoughts" article in which he was commenting about roof operations and good Truck crews. Basically his thoughts are that roof operations are vital and essential but if you believe that roof work is the pinnacle of Truck work then you need to transfer back to the engine. Again, these are the thoughts of the great Tom Brennen, which I happen to agree with whole heartedly.
-Search, Rescue, VES,.... lots of other things for Truckies to get done.
-Stay safe.
BRICK

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on January 2, 2009 at 8:16pm

Again I think this is an aerial ladder job because it is 2 stroies tall. On a one story building we won't place an aerial for fear of tipping the truck over. We've done it since I've been on a the job but not at a fire that I know of. Getting down quickly on an aerial is easy compared to a ground ladder, even with out the tools.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on January 2, 2009 at 9:37pm

-Jim,
we use aerials to access the roof of one story structures all the time such as taxpayers or other one story commercial occupancies. The reasoning is that an aerial is safer than a ground ladder, especially when carrying tools to the roof.
-I have always viewed an aerial as a mobile flight of stairs with railings as apposed to a ground ladder. Moreover, I believe a good Truck Company should be able to raise the aerial as fast, if not faster, than a ground ladder can be carried and raised.
-If the operator/chauffeur/driver knows what he is doing, and operates the apparatus within the design specifications, there is no danger of tipping the apparatus over while using the aerial to access the roof of a one story structure.
-Stay safe,
BRICK

Jim Mason said:

Again I think this is an aerial ladder job because it is 2 stroies tall. On a one story building we won't place an aerial for fear of tipping the truck over. We've done it since I've been on a the job but not at a fire that I know of. Getting down quickly on an aerial is easy compared to a ground ladder, even with out the tools.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on January 2, 2009 at 9:40pm

-Yeah Dave you're right.
-I agree that on a taxpayer we "may" need to monitor conditions, although I would prefer to just get the hell off the roof. The beautiful thing is that the video shows a residential occupancy and makes my/our case for us. Its a classic example of, "Don't know what else to do so I'll stand here and pose for the camera lookin' at the h*** in the roof".
-The one thing I do caution against is the use of a trench cut in a taxpayer type structure. Trenches are specifically designed for use on structures that create a natural choke point such as an old fashion H style apartment building. Trench cuts have been erroneously applied to such structures as taxpayers in which the structure is actually to large for a trench to be beneficial or accomplished in a timely enough manner.
-Not implying you would do such a thing.... just a pet peeve.
-Stay safe

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on January 3, 2009 at 7:42pm

I agree with the mobile flight of stairs, Brick. We have a shopping mall in town. Many years ago,our old Chief didin't think we needed to raise a ladder out of its bed on the incoming quint. We threw ground ladders that reached, barely, but reached. It was no fun humping tools and hose for a roof fire up a ground ladder. That mindset changed when that Chief left, now we make room for the quint.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on January 4, 2009 at 4:25pm

Guys
I'm talking about setting the aerial to a roof that is 1 story tall. About 10-12 feet tall. If you have a one story building that is 20 feet tall I'd say use the aerial. Easiest ladder to set up, right? We won;t use the ladder below 30 degrees for fear of tipping the truck over, which has happpened here. The biggest probelms we have with 1 story aerail raises is the streets. We are almost always going off the side with the aerail ladder. On a one story that makes it dangerous. If we could get it over the rear or front of the rig , then we could do it if needed.

I think the video shows a couple more things for us good looking CSF members to consider. I think that all members in the decision making area of a structure fire sould be thinking stratgeically, at least to consider how they fit into the over all startigic situation. The guys on the roof are working without an officer, so they are in control of their own destiny. I asked before how did those windows below the roof get vented? If they did it, they are responsilbe to know that the fire can come out there. The fire building area is small and the windows are large in comparison. what did they expect to happen if they vented those windows? As for the IC, I ask can he see the fire building or is he sitting in his car? If so, where are the "sector chiefs" who are needed to report to the IC?
Also, what is the engine's report on how they are doing in the extiguishment of the fire? If the engine is delayed for any number of reasons, did they report? This could certainly hurt the roof team and put them in the position of the video (putting side the lack of egress for the roof members)
The IC should be able to predict what will happen when the windows gets vented too, if he can see the fire building. If not, is he putting those guys in harms way? I believe that he is.
One last point for the discussion - Do your depts send FF"s to the roofs of "taxpayers" with bar joist truss roof construction? We have a concern with that, due to the quick collapse conditions of non - combustilbe construction. I'm going to start a discussion on truss construction fires by itself but I'd just like to hear from you guys on this a bit

Jeff Schwering said:

I agree with the mobile flight of stairs, Brick. We have a shopping mall in town. Many years ago,our old Chief didin't think we needed to raise a ladder out of its bed on the incoming quint. We threw ground ladders that reached, barely, but reached. It was no fun humping tools and hose for a roof fire up a ground ladder. That mindset changed when that Chief left, now we make room for the quint.

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