When do we say enough?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 10, 2008 at 12:20am

-Hey Chris, interesting comment. I remember back when I started my career and I made a similar comment to a lieutenant, something to the effect that my job was to follow orders.
-I was quickly reprimanded by this lieutenant, who became one of my mentors, that there are four people on the rig because one man cannot see everything and know everything. "Thee are four sets of eyes for a reason".
-The lesson was that a company officer is much like the president of the United States. Even the president has advisors to help him make the final decisions. The president makes the final decision but he has people to give him impute and analysis to aid the decision making process. This is how my lieutenant treated the company. We learned early on to pass on things we saw, etc.
-This lieutenants opinion was that if you didn't offer some impute than you weren't doing your job. In fact I made the mistake of mentioning something after the call that I had seen during the call; boy was that a mistake. "What are you telling me for now!"
-This is the boss we should all strive to be like, one that knows he requires information to make proper, informed decisions and empowers his people to the advantage to the company and the outcome of the call.
-Stay safe, BRICK

Permalink Reply by Chris Fleming on December 10, 2008 at 6:42am

I like that quote, "There are four four sets of eyes for a reason!" I'll be using that in the future! When it comes to saying "No" to an interior attack, I think it is kind of interesting that we always work backwards toward that decision. I think most aggressive firefighters head out the door thinking interior/offensive attack and as conditions reveal that we are in over our heads it is only then that we go defensive. I think this may impair our situational awareness. I wonder if we could save firefighters lives by rolling out the door thinking defensive first and then going offensive when conditions permit? Instead of teaching them to notice signs of something bad about to happen, teach them to assume something bad is going to happen and have them learn signs that it's ok to go to an offensive attack. Just a thought. Stay safe!
Chris

Michael Bricault said:

-Hey Chris, interesting comment. I remember back when I started my career and I made a similar comment to a lieutenant, something to the effect that my job was to follow orders.
-I was quickly reprimanded by this lieutenant, who became one of my mentors, that there are four people on the rig because one man cannot see everything and know everything. "Thee are four sets of eyes for a reason".
-The lesson was that a company officer is much like the president of the United States. Even the president has advisors to help him make the final decisions. The president makes the final decision but he has people to give him impute and analysis to aid the decision making process. This is how my lieutenant treated the company. We learned early on to pass on things we saw, etc.
-This lieutenants opinion was that if you didn't offer some impute than you weren't doing your job. In fact I made the mistake of mentioning something after the call that I had seen during the call; boy was that a mistake. "What are you telling me for now!"
-This is the boss we should all strive to be like, one that knows he requires information to make proper, informed decisions and empowers his people to the advantage to the company and the outcome of the call.
-Stay safe, BRICK

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 11, 2008 at 3:43pm

You guys have alot of great thoughts! It comes back down to when do we say enough? Let me ask this - How do we teach when a member should say something on the radio to command, sector chief, whoever it is to be reported to.?
This is what I find out there and read about in these NIOSH reports: Many members, and I mean FF's and officers alike, don;t know when to say this is going bad.

For instances, if a firefighter is assigned outside vent duties (OV) and he sees a change of construction styles from front to back of the fire buidling, does he ask himself "Hey, how is this additional floor space built? Maybe it could be truss constructed because it looks newer." Should something like that be reported to the IC?

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on December 11, 2008 at 6:09pm

Excellent question Jim

I want hear from the guys anytime they find something out of the ordinary. Such as, if they notice the bars are on the inside of the windows instead of being on the outside. Saw that yesterday. That makes a difference to me as to say "enough" because obviously RIT is going to have a much more difficult time getting those out of the way. If I know circumstances exist that will pose unusual or more difficult exit capabilities, it definitely makes my ears perk up.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 12, 2008 at 12:36pm

-Jim, in response to your question about radio discipline and when to mention noted conditions, I spoke to the Academy staff to get the answers (been a long time since rookie school and there HAVE been some changes. lol)
-There is a portion of a day set aside in recruit training that deals specifically with radios, radio traffic, clear text and ten codes. Recruits learn how to operate the radio and the emergency bypass features.
-Also during this phase recruits learn about Mayday, emergency and urgent radio traffic, how to report these different radio messages and the features/parameters for transmitting these messages, as well as when they should be broadcasting "interesting" information.
-Apparently the Training Academy staff believes that information is empowering and beneficial and therefore members will learn how to identify, broadcast and receive information.
-Retraining the entire department is problematic and is currently addressed in memo form. All new hires learn he new procedures in the Academy and hopefully, the trickle down won't be to long in coming for the rest of us.
-Stay safe, BRICK

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 12, 2008 at 3:06pm

Leadership can and should live within all levels of an organization. Even the greenest candidate can show personal leadership. By that I mean, learning the job in a craftsman like fashion and taking an active role in the firefight. Not only at the task level but in learning what fire behavior means in real life. Even the newest candidate can and should speak-up if he/she sees something that does not look right.

A short story that I imagine Jim will know. This was related to a new Officer class at the Chicago Fre Academy while we were teaching a Tactics class as part of their officer training prior to being assigned. The fire occurred at a currency exchange and the very short version is that this member was dropped into the inferno as the roof collapsed. The good news is that he was rescued due to hard work, some luck and the timely placement of ground ladders etc…… In any case, this member stated that he was told to get off of the roof by a Lieutenant that had been detailed to the truck. He said that he made a judgment based on his knowledge that this officer had spent most of his career on an engine and discounted his “request” to leave the roof. This officer had felt “movement” of the roof under his feet and had a feeling that collapse was imminent. Shortly thereafter, a Battalion Chief ordered the crew off the roof and as this member picked up his saw and moved toward the outer wall, the roof collapsed and he ended up in the well-involved building. He was located with a ladder and was able to climb out on his own power. The member was burned; however, he was eventually able to return to work.

His message is….. he made a judgment on a safety issue based on what he thought about another member’s experience. He said from that day forward, he didn’t care if grandma was across the street walking her dog and said something didn’t look right, he was going to listen.

This really becomes an issue of perspective and the reason Incident Commanders must remain on the exterior in a “stationary” command position. They have to keep the big perspective in view. The problem is that the IC, even with the best view, has a limited perspective and counts on company officers to relay critical information from their perspective to try and obtain a “full view”. For example, an engine officer loses perspective as soon as they enter the doorway. The truck officer looses perspective once they ascend the ladder and step on the roof. The ability to obtain a more full and complete perspective is only possible with a great deal of input from the various fireground perspectives.

Gents, the safety of our members is everyone’s responsibility. If anyone sees a problem, a changing condition, signs of collapse or anything else that has the potential to hurt or kill one of our members……speak-up.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 15, 2008 at 7:45pm

Unfortunately Jeff, It's comming because it always does. (One of the few always in our job) Be ready brother! I know you are, but keep on looking for it.

Jeff Schwering said:

With building construction theway it is now, that is going to be a primary concern. I honestly don't think this a skill that you're taught. Regardless of rank, everyone gets that little guy on their shoulder, telling you it's not a good idea. My firefighters saftety is tops in my mind. A well involved structure, we need to look at Risk vs Benefit. I guess, to me, the old saying of we risk alot, to save alot, risk a little to save a little, we risk nothing to save nothing applies. We have a fair amount of engineered truss floors, in our area, as well as light weight truss roofs, Thankfully, I've never been placed in this position, but I won't hesitate to keep my guys or gals out of a loser.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 15, 2008 at 7:49pm

Excellant Chris.
I agree completly, Guys have to follow orders and also be ready, willing and able to speak up. It's hard to develop that in officers, let alone FF's but trust and ego play big roles in it.
Chris Fleming said:

Excellent question, Jim! The answers I'm reading are even better!! As a company officer, I've had very new firefighters tell me, "My job is to follow orders" and I get discouraged. As I try and explain to those guys, thinking is EVERY firefighter's job. I think the buzz phrase for this is Crew Resource Management. This boils down to looking out for each other. I'm finding out good leadership is all about relationships. If I have your trust, and vice versa, I feel ok with pointing something out that I'm unsure about and we can work from there. Trust is the most important thing in this business. I think the biggest impediment to trust is ego. The guy you can't tell anything to is a liability on the fireground, because he's going to miss a big part of the size up picture. Likewise, if we don't give firefighters the fortitude to speak up and pass information to the I.C. we are tying one hand behind our back.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 15, 2008 at 8:54pm

Yeah Art, Bob is my friend. I worked with him for fews years. I worked with his brother too.
And the story bring me back towards my orignal question. When do we say enough. Does it have to be the IC or does it need to be based on what the IC hears from his officers? Can FF's on the job do it?
I ask myself everyday "As an officer, am I able to order them out?" and while we're getting out, can I radio to command that we have abandoned the attack? As a FF I stated asking myself the same question when ten of us were caught in a collapse. Bob in Art's story was one of us that day too.
I think it comes down to training and how things are taught. Do we coordinate the attack? Can we teach coordination? Will it help when ordering (or as a FF, just saying) ENOUGH?
Has anybody ever said to themselves while inside the fire building? "I wish I knew how this place was laid out a little better?"
I can think of a thousand things that should to be reported to the IC from the rear, the roof, inside as an offcier on the line, as the search team leader (officer or senior FF ). Not all of them need to be responded to by a "GET OUT" from the IC. So I ask, can we teach coordination on the fire ground? When we see something from one side of the building or another do we think how that info would help others inside or on the roof? Should we?

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 15, 2008 at 11:19pm

-Absolutely. Knowledge is power and serves to create a safer, more coordinated fireground since all members will know what is going on and who is doing what and what actions must be taken to support their continued efforts.
-For example, if a Ladder Co. is in the process of rescuing victims from upper floors, the engine operating below or in the area of the stairs will know that they need to shift their focus or efforts or simply that they cannot bail out yet until the company above is out of the structure.
-If someone observes the stairs or ceiling sagging or falling in they should advise this over the radio so those operating above or intending to would be aware of an impending disaster.
-Consider the information needed for a Ladder Co. that made entry through a window via a portable ladder that now has fire beginning to vent and impinge on the portable ladder.
-Information is empowering and allows for coordinated and tactful decisions to be made in a timely manner effecting the fire ground.
-All firefighters should be radio equipped and know how and when to make these radio observations.
-Can we teach these skills? Yes. Should we teach these skills and principles? Absolutely.
-Stay safe

Jim Mason said:

Yeah Art, Bob is my friend. I worked with him for fews years. I worked with his brother too.
And the story bring me back towards my orignal question. When do we say enough. Does it have to be the IC or does it need to be based on what the IC hears from his officers? Can FF's on the job do it? I ask myself everyday "As an officer, am I able to order them out?" and while we're getting out, can I radio to command that we have abandoned the attack? As a FF I stated asking myself the same question when ten of us were caught in a collapse. Bob in Art's story was one of us that day too. I think it comes down to training and how things are taught. Do we coordinate the attack? Can we teach coordination? Will it help when ordering (or as a FF, just saying) ENOUGH?
Has anybody ever said to themselves while inside the fire building? "I wish I knew how this place was laid out a little better?"
I can think of a thousand things that should to be reported to the IC from the rear, the roof, inside as an offcier on the line, as the search team leader (officer or senior FF ). Not all of them need to be responded to by a "GET OUT" from the IC. So I ask, can we teach coordination on the fire ground? When we see something from one side of the building or another do we think how that info would help others inside or on the roof? Should we?

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 16, 2008 at 10:41pm

Jim,

The IC needs to take-in information from the company officers operating in the various parts of the structure. It is often difficult for officers to give timely status reports; however, that information is critical to the IC in his/her decision making process. As conditions change, that information becomes more critical. If I don't hear from a company every few minutes, I will give them a "shout" to check on them. Again, its all about perspective. Even the person with the best overall view does not have a complete picture. It is much like a puzzle, until you get enough of the key peices in place, you can't tell what the picture is for sure.

As Brick said, even if the discision is made to "bail-out" of the building, that msut be coordinated. If the "retreat" is not coordinated, we risk putting companies in further danger.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 17, 2008 at 7:53pm

You guys bring up good points again.

I think that chnaging the attack once FF's are inside is very difficult but it happens alot that we give it a try. That's porbabaly the most difficult operation. It definetly needs to be coordinated, but does anybody talk about it or train on it?
I'm on a Fireground suvival commietee with the IAFF/IAFC/ NIOSH and that is one of our proposals in it for survival. We need to have a plan on getting out alive with everyone. Even if it is just talked about.
I recently had to get the engine comapny I was on ,out of the building and I realized that, among many other reasons, that the best place for the officer was second on the hose line to the nozzle man. I was able to get him out and pick up everyone else beacuse they were all behind me as we left. I'm last of course.

What can we do to get guys to listen that it is time to leave? As in the story Art relates about my buddy on the currency exchange roof when it collapsed.

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