What is your departments' primary ventilation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 3, 2008 at 8:37pm

Brian,

I agree, we should start the PPV discussion anew. We had a good discussion today while teaching a Strategy and Tactics II class. We discussed PPV as it related to single family (type 3 or 5) as opposed to multifamily, high rise and commercial (type 1, 2). Chicago, FDNY and NIST have conducted scientific testing to finally back-up the tactical application of PPV in mid and high-rise residential structures that many of us have been using for many years. The scientific validation is important. Some of the info and videos can be seen on the NIST site at fire.gov

In any case, the misuse of PPV and the lack of proper background work, training and especially coordination and communication when employing PPV has led to many problems.

Jim, do you want to start a new PPV thread or continue here?

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 3, 2008 at 8:44pm

Yeah Brian , We went through some PPV stuff here in this thread. We only use it on large buildings after the fire is knocked down to celar it out. Reading your response , now I understand what your engine officer is doing when we make the 360. The prediction of what will happen is difficult some times , I bet. We like to get the place vented before we extinguish the fire. It gets the lift like you say. The coordination in this is the key to success.


Brian Arnold said:

Jim,
For us the Engine officer has the option of taking a window(s) prior to entry and while operating inside. My personal preference is to see what type of push I have coming out of the fire room and take enough windows to let the thermal layering rise. The problem being, as more windows are taken out the fire gets a chance to breath so the attack line better be getting in quickly to knock it out. With our construction types of SFD this generally buys the engine company enough time to advance the attack and combined with a well trained and aggressive truck crew the top is popped letting most of the heat out. I'm spoiled in the fact that the truck and the engine are generally arriving together or within a min. of each other. Delays in the first due engine or first due truck sometimes changes tactics.

As I said earlier about PPV, it's relatively new and can be a dangerous animal. I see PPV employed incorrectly more times than I see used correctly. If crews aren't absolutely sure that PPV is the way to go, I would just as soon see the fan left on the truck until after knock down. But I suspect the benefits and drawbacks of PPV could probably be another topic all by itself.

Brian



Jim Mason said:

Brian
Thanks for jumping in, you're always welcome here
Does yor engine officer take out the windows from inside or outside? Maybe it could be the truck officer? Just wondering. I like the idea of having the roof opened unless someone tells them to stop. It gets it going when the situation is difficult so when everyone forgets to tells the roof team affirmatively " to open the roof" it is stil l being done. I once worked for an officer that wanted to tell when to open the roof rather than tell us when to not and of course several times he forgot about it when the situation was tense. We were opening it already, of course.
One of the group members is going to start a discussion on Mcmansions in the near future so we can look to coordination of venting and extinguishment much closer then but how do you keep smoke and heat from going upstairs to the bedrooms in these large buildings with the PPV fan ? I've seen the effects of wind driven fires several times and although they weren't controlled I'm still concerned about driving the fire through the building.

Brian Arnold said:

Jim,
Thanks for the invite, sorry I'm so late getting into conversations. It looks like it's been great so far so I'll add my two cents and meet everyone at the pub in Indy to continue.

We are truly in the middle of the country and have seen the influence of both east coast and west coast ventilation practices over the years. I can say that we don't rely on only one technique but utilize horizontal, vertical and PPV.

For us it's all about location, location, location. Size up of the structure, size and location of the fire and life hazard all dictates what type of ventilation we use.

We cover 660 square miles with the majority of homes being single story single platform type dwellings. Yes we have some of the balloon frame, queen ann's and flat roofed residences but 90% of our structure fires occur in a ranch style home with a 8/12 pitch roof or less.

For the majority of homes in my district, the engine officer will take windows while doing his size up providing entry isn't going to be a problem. Truck will go to roof (2 men) and open up over the fire unless called off by attack crew.

But if you go to the district North of mine, it's loading with 5000 square foot McMansions and 10/12 pitched roofs or greater. Even if you got a h*** quickly, you would need a 20' pole to punch out the ceiling. It just doesn't work for them so they rely heavily on horizontal and PPV.

We are working on educating our personnel on what type of ventilation should be used and what effects it will have on the fire, occupants and building rather than just saying one approach is the only way. Every firefighter should know what the benefits of opening up a roof are as well as the draw backs. Horizontal ventilation can help victims and interior crews or it can let the fire breath a little more and take off if attack crews aren't ready. PPV can do the same thing only much faster if used improperly. Unfortunately I have seen first hand PPV or PPA (whatever you want to call it) used textbook properly only to drive out attack crews. PPV is a relatively new animal to the fire service and still has many unknowns and can be very dangerous.

What I do know after 23 years is that when we get the heat and smoke out of the structure it sure makes life easier on me and my fellow hose draggers and especially victims. Communication between companies, training, building knowledge, proper size up and strong leadership all influence how ventilation will be accomplished on each incident.
I could go on, but I don't have a cold frosty adult beverage and they just called Chow!
Stay safe,
Brian

Permalink Reply by Brian Arnold on December 3, 2008 at 9:31pm

Chief Zern,
I've got all the video's and NIST studies from all the PPV studies. I know this would probably be a hot topic here and generate alot of different opinions. I also know that some new studies related to PPV and SFD are slated for 2009 and 2010 which should give us even more information. Most of my work and emphasis related to PPV has been with one to two story SFD type 3 or 5. Would love to be a part of a new discussion related to this.

Brian

Art Zern said:

Brian,

I agree, we should start the PPV discussion anew. We had a good discussion today while teaching a Strategy and Tactics II class. We discussed PPV as it related to single family (type 3 or 5) as opposed to multifamily, high rise and commercial (type 1, 2). Chicago, FDNY and NIST have conducted scientific testing to finally back-up the tactical application of PPV in mid and high-rise residential structures that many of us have been using for many years. The scientific validation is important. Some of the info and videos can be seen on the NIST site at fire.gov

In any case, the misuse of PPV and the lack of proper background work, training and especially coordination and communication when employing PPV has led to many problems.

Jim, do you want to start a new PPV thread or continue here?

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 3, 2008 at 9:54pm

Brian,

Art......please

The NIST work has validated some work my department and others have been doing in High/mid rises for many years. However, I still have many issues and reservations with SFD and PPV. I know we will hear from those that use it often and with great success. My problem is that many departments grab onto tactical techniques and methods and employ them without doing the research, background work and initial training. And then.....they don't deploy PPV within strictly established criteria and with poor coordination and worse communication. This is when firefighters are put in peril.

Those departments that use PPV successfully have done their homework, initial and ongoing training, deploy PPV according to established guidelines, closely coordinate the attack and communicate very well. There are many opportunities for things to go south if the above aspects are not followed.

Permalink Reply by Brian Arnold on December 3, 2008 at 10:46pm

Art,

Sounds like a new topic then! It appears like we have many of the same reservations with some forms of PPV or PPA in SFD. Looking forward to the discussion and different viewpoints.

Thanks Chief,
Brian

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