The Coordinated Fire Attack

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on November 20, 2008 at 10:03pm

With the correct flow you should be able to knock down a fire in a single family dwelling like the one shown in about 10 mins. Any more than that and you are creeping toward that 20 min window of this fire whooping you.

I would place the pipe man and the officer at the nozzle and have the third man as the hose advancer to help get the line around corners and to where it needs to be to be effective.

Jim Mason said:

You bring up a good point. How long does it take to knock down a fire when we have the correct flow? Is this something we learned when we went though basic fire service training? Yet, How often do we see engine companies keep figting a fire even though it can't be controled because we haven't reached the critical flow to win?

How would you as an officer on the engine keep constant communication with your engine company? Where would a three FF hose team be placed on the line in a residence

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 20, 2008 at 10:08pm

Take a look at this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btSQ2tYOElo&feature=related
It speaks right to the heart of this conversation; coordination and proper ventilation. Notice a few things.
1. Is ventilation being performed? Is it adequate or improper?
2. Are personnel being used adequately?
3. Is the roof ventilation timely enough to assist the firefighting effort or is it just damage?
4. Does it appear that a search is being addressed?
5. Is the 1 3/4 hose the correct size line for this fire?

Be a thinking firefighter and not a reacting one. Stay safe.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on November 21, 2008 at 11:31am

Hey Jim, depending on the day, a hose team might consist of 2 or 3. Constant communication has been made better through new technology, but it can't replace in my opinion, smart placement of the company officer. On a 2 man hose team, I would be behind my nozzleman when advancing. With 2 firefighters and myself, I'm in the middle of the pack, talking to both members and assessing my surroundings. Many things depend on the training and knowledge of the first officers on scene, all things, again in my opinion, lead back to proper training.

Stay Safe
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 23, 2008 at 11:28am

As the officer on the line in an interior attack I think being second (behind the nozzle man) is criitcal for directing the attack, ensuring that no one (Truckies and I'm one too!) gets in front of the hose stream and constantly assessing if we need to abandon the attack I can pull the nozzleman out along with shagginng everyone behind out of the building. As the second on the line I can see as well as possible , where as the nozzleman can't usually see at all.
But let me ask this - when we throw water on a burning sofa, an interior wall with with fire filled wood studs or rollover on the ceiling comming out of the room with the seat, how long does the water take to knock down the fire? I think that time is about 15 to 30 seconds. And that is what the officer needs to look at to determine if the attack is working.
If we must abandon the attack I might even put the nozzleman in front of me ( as we exit) so I'm the last member out of the building. For this reason I ask about the video, Is the guy that leaves the building the officer or someone that the officer might have not accounted for? When the line gets back outside after the flashover that forces the engine team back outside, it starts flowing water again. Was the member that came out sperate the offcier or an accounted for FF?
I like to have the backup fireifghter at the last turn before the nozzle. In other words, he's at the hose turn behind the officer, filling up the rooms behind the line advance with available hose. As the officer I could have him come up to me to search a room that is being protected by the nozzle or even take the nozzle if the FF originally working it runs out of air in his SCBA. The bck up position is a very versitle position on the hse team in my mind.
Chris Piepenburg said:

With the correct flow you should be able to knock down a fire in a single family dwelling like the one shown in about 10 mins. Any more than that and you are creeping toward that 20 min window of this fire whooping you.

I would place the pipe man and the officer at the nozzle and have the third man as the hose advancer to help get the line around corners and to where it needs to be to be effective.

Jim Mason said:

You bring up a good point. How long does it take to knock down a fire when we have the correct flow? Is this something we learned when we went though basic fire service training? Yet, How often do we see engine companies keep figting a fire even though it can't be controled because we haven't reached the critical flow to win?

How would you as an officer on the engine keep constant communication with your engine company? Where would a three FF hose team be placed on the line in a residence

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 23, 2008 at 11:54am

Everyone
Let's go the home page of CSF for the replies on this new discussion called "New Discussion on Coordination on the Fire Ground"
Thanks to Mike B for supplying this new discussion for the group
Jim M

Michael Bricault said:

Take a look at this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btSQ2tYOElo&feature=related
It speaks right to the heart of this conversation; coordination and proper ventilation. Notice a few things.
1. Is ventilation being performed? Is it adequate or improper?
2. Are personnel being used adequately?
3. Is the roof ventilation timely enough to assist the firefighting effort or is it just damage?
4. Does it appear that a search is being addressed?
5. Is the 1 3/4 hose the correct size line for this fire?

Be a thinking firefighter and not a reacting one. Stay safe.

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