The Coordinated Fire Attack

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joe Heim on November 12, 2008 at 8:23pm

As the truck officer I would send my crew to the rear of the structure and open up the C side, since the B side has already self vented this would give the engine crew the opportunity to push the fire out the B & C side of the structure.

As an engine officer we would attempt to push the fire out the B & C side of the structure. All members would stay in at minimum of voice contact at all times, and the determination of abondoning the attack would be made when we had high heat banking down with zero visibility and not enough water to make a knock on the fire.

As the chief officer arriving on scene I would call for a Box upgrading from the working still already coming in, sound the emergency traffic tone over the radio and order everyone out of the structure along with sounding the air horns, once personnel were out of the structure, I would call for a PAR, once everyone was accounted for we would go defensive with 2.5" lines along with deck guns to put a knock on the fire.

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on November 13, 2008 at 7:38pm

As a truck officer you need to be aware of what the engine company is doing. Before starting to horizontally ventilate you need to make sure the line is getting into position, charged and ready to go. There is no reason to be surprised after venting the front windows that the place lights up. I think that is basic fire behavior. There is obviously a good push of smoke. I think this is a good candidate for vertical venting.

As an engine officer you need to drill and make sure your people know what there job is depending on the assignment at hand.( riding assignments) You also need to remember how important it is to get that first line into operation before pulling additional lines. You determine when to back out by experience and conditions.

As a chief you need to take command and get a handle on things right now. There seems to be panic with people screaming things. Get the basics done. First line operating and vent the roof. Get a report from your officers. With these two things getting done things should get a lot better. I would also call for a box if not done yet.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 16, 2008 at 11:11am

Yeah Joe the rear would be the place to open up the building. Does the front window getting opened up make the engine company have to leave the building? Look at the unburned fuel floating around that window in front that lights up when it finally gets the ignition! Could that rear position give a radio report to the engine/IC that would help with the engine officer with a pick of the hose line or even the decision on not to go inside in the first place? What do you think?

On the engine, I'm wondering how to account for all the FF's on the line. And is the guy that comes after the line is on the front lawn - is he a FF or the officer? The hose starts flowing and then he comes out. I think we need to teach how long it takes to knock down the fire when we get the critical flow going on it. In about 30 seconds we should have the fire knocked down. If it doesnlt happen the officer should think about why! Do we need more venting? more water? Can we do either of these in a reasonable amount of time if not, let's abandon the attack. It's a point of reference that even the newest member in the fire service should be able to relate to.

The chief certainly needs to ask for more companies and to get these guys out of the building.

Joe Heim said:

As the truck officer I would send my crew to the rear of the structure and open up the C side, since the B side has already self vented this would give the engine crew the opportunity to push the fire out the B & C side of the structure.

As an engine officer we would attempt to push the fire out the B & C side of the structure. All members would stay in at minimum of voice contact at all times, and the determination of abondoning the attack would be made when we had high heat banking down with zero visibility and not enough water to make a knock on the fire.

As the chief officer arriving on scene I would call for a Box upgrading from the working still already coming in, sound the emergency traffic tone over the radio and order everyone out of the structure along with sounding the air horns, once personnel were out of the structure, I would call for a PAR, once everyone was accounted for we would go defensive with 2.5" lines along with deck guns to put a knock on the fire.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 16, 2008 at 11:26am

Yeah Jim I think venting the roof here is the ticket. As the truck CO, would you go around the back to see what is going on? That might tell us alot.

The engine has alot of guys on the line, could we (should we ) use a 2 1/2" inside this fire? What if we had a report from the dispatch that someone was still inside? A good point you make - the first line is critical. What specifics would mke you pul out if you were the engine CO?

As the chief would you pull them out?

Jim Wilk said:

As a truck officer you need to be aware of what the engine company is doing. Before starting to horizontally ventilate you need to make sure the line is getting into position, charged and ready to go. There is no reason to be surprised after venting the front windows that the place lights up. I think that is basic fire behavior. There is obviously a good push of smoke. I think this is a good candidate for vertical venting.

As an engine officer you need to drill and make sure your people know what there job is depending on the assignment at hand.( riding assignments) You also need to remember how important it is to get that first line into operation before pulling additional lines. You determine when to back out by experience and conditions.

As a chief you need to take command and get a handle on things right now. There seems to be panic with people screaming things. Get the basics done. First line operating and vent the roof. Get a report from your officers. With these two things getting done things should get a lot better. I would also call for a box if not done yet.

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on November 16, 2008 at 2:44pm

Jim,

Like in the other topics, your initial size up is very important. This should tell you what tactics you are going to use for the strategy at hand. I think you should check the rear for conditions as well as anybody hanging out of windows. I took a class by Rick Kolomey ( don't know if the spelling is right) that said 70% of victims are found at the rear. Usually because this is the entrance/exit most people use.

This looks like a good fire to use a 2 1/2 on. Especially with fire throughout the first floor. If you had a report of someone still inside, that would be a hard decision. If they are on that first floor, you may have to write them off until the fire is knocked down. Second floor, maybe if they are at the windows. I was never taught any VES techniques.

As the chief I may pull them out for a regrouping. Make sure they have the correct line stretched or maybe even hit it with the deck gun for a couple seconds.

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on November 17, 2008 at 10:48am

Wow...nice fire!!

For me I think the key as a truck officer is to get a good size-up to see where a bulk of the fire is. With the amount ofr fire blowing out this window it is safe to say the inside is not very tenable and the enigne will have a hard time pushing that way until we do some type of ventilation. I think venting the roof is the way to go with this fire! You have smoke pushing out just about every opening in this house, so one could probably foresee that if you open up horizontally you will have happen what happened in the video.

As the pumper monkey I think entering the structure closest to the main body of fire is going to give you the best bang for you buck. In this situation an entrance in the rear is going to be your best bet. There definitely needs to be coordination with the truck company as to when to begin the attack. Once the engine company is in a good position the truck can fully open the roof and allow the gases to get up and out while the engine is beginning to advance on the fire.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 19, 2008 at 12:40am

Hey Jim. I know this first observation is outside the parameters of your question, but I am a firm believer that safety issues, especially those caught on film, must be addressed and pointed out so that others will not view these film clips and think this is the proper way of doing business.
Specifically, the huge safety concern is the video showing MANY, MANY firefighters walking around and even participating while wearing no gear or wearing varying and improper levels of PPE. Anyone operating on this fire ground that is not wearing full PPE should be kicked off the fire ground; period.
As to the specific question of venting and coordination, I think the definitive action by a Truck Company in this video would be vertical ventilation. That being said, I believe it is doubtful that a department, particularly the smaller FD's that do not operate true Truck/Ladder Companies, will ever be able to accomplish venting the roof in a timely enough manner so their actions will assist the Engine advance. The Engine in the video is already prepared to move in.
A true Ladder Company has 4 firefighters minimum that are responding on and functioning as a dedicated Truck Company on a Ladder apparatus. They are responsible for forcible entry, search, rescue, ventilation, salvage and overhaul. Speaking generally, it is usually only the larger cities that operate a true Ladder Company. Most (not all but most) smaller FD's have a skeleton crew on the ladder and the result is a ladder apparatus driven to the scene by one or two firefighters. This is not a ladder company but rather an apparatus brought to the scene in the case that an elevated master stream is required.
Now for those four or more firefighters that are dedicated as and operate as a Truck Co; they are assigned to, riding on and responding with a ladder apparatus; they should have the training and experience to operate efficiently enough to get the ladder up, throw a ground ladder for a secondary means of escape and get up to the roof to take care of business in a rapid, safe, TIMELY and professional manner. Remember, cutting the roof after the fire is knocked down is nothing more than performing the essential tactic of “unnecessary damage”.
IF, the responding ladder company is not a truly dedicated or operated as a Truck Company and/or the ladder must consider horizontal ventilation then said horizontal venting must be performed in a safe and responsible manner; i.e. start close to the fire-not 30 ft. away at the front door. Clean out the windows in immediate proximity to the fire (the B side), moving toward the A side, THEN vent the front windows (A side) so the front door can be safely forced for the Engine advance. And none of this addresses the most important Truck Company function- Search and Rescue. Finally, someone from the Truck must also open up the rear ( C side) for the Engine, their advance and as a possible escape route.
The resulting dynamic combustion seen in the video clip was inevitable due to poor venting tactics.
As to the Engine concerns with this video... company continuity/integrity must be addressed well before this event ever takes place. Firefighters must be taught, instructed, mentored and have it just plain beaten into their heads that Engine Companies are a team, they function together as a team, enter together as a team and leave together as a team.
In regard to the video, I am reminded of a fire service "true-ism" that was taught to me by an old crusty fireman way back when. Part of this proverb states that, “If the fire has control of more than two (2) residential size rooms then the Engine MUST initially stretch the 2 1/2 line at a minimum”. The video clip is a testament to the knee jerk reaction firefighting that takes place because of a lack of experience or a lack of training and education spawning improper decisions that serve only to reinforce poor tactical judgment and decision making.
In other words, "We always stretch that line" may have worked for you in the past but we must be thinking firefighters and not reacting ones. Once again Tom Brennen was correct when he pointed out that many firefighters that always stretch the 1 3/4 are reacting and not thinking. This particular fire is screaming to the Engine Co to catch the hydrant (don’t wait for the 2nd due engine) and to stretch a large (2 ½ in.) handline. While the Truck is opening up, the Engine should be using the time to insure a water supply and to properly stretch and flake out their large hand line that is tipped with a solid bore nozzle.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on November 19, 2008 at 3:54pm

As a Truck Officer, the C side of the structure is the place to vent to assist the engine crew in pushing the fire out the B/C corner.
As an Engine Officer, with the amount of fire showing, I would call for a 2.5 in line to be stretched initially, "big fire, big water". If my company was not making headway on the fire, it would be time to pull out and try something different. Constant communication with my company is a must.
As a Chief, strike an additional alarm, ensure a RIT team is in place, make sure all members were accounted for, Pull everyone back and make sure my officers are on the same page, before we got a member seriously injured or killed.

Permalink Reply by Joe Heim on November 19, 2008 at 8:53pm

I would say opening the front window would because now there is more air induced into the building along with the thick, chunky turbulent black smoke. Someone in the rear position could give a radio report on conditions and I believe a 2.5" line would be the best for knock down power. The officer should know how many are in his company and should be in at minimum of voice contact with them at all times and I would hope the last one out of the building was the company officer so he can get a accurate count of his personnel and he should be leading his personnel in and making sure they come out before him.

Jim Mason said:

Yeah Joe the rear would be the place to open up the building. Does the front window getting opened up make the engine company have to leave the building? Look at the unburned fuel floating around that window in front that lights up when it finally gets the ignition! Could that rear position give a radio report to the engine/IC that would help with the engine officer with a pick of the hose line or even the decision on not to go inside in the first place? What do you think?

On the engine, I'm wondering how to account for all the FF's on the line. And is the guy that comes after the line is on the front lawn - is he a FF or the officer? The hose starts flowing and then he comes out. I think we need to teach how long it takes to knock down the fire when we get the critical flow going on it. In about 30 seconds we should have the fire knocked down. If it doesnlt happen the officer should think about why! Do we need more venting? more water? Can we do either of these in a reasonable amount of time if not, let's abandon the attack. It's a point of reference that even the newest member in the fire service should be able to relate to.

The chief certainly needs to ask for more companies and to get these guys out of the building.

Joe Heim said:

As the truck officer I would send my crew to the rear of the structure and open up the C side, since the B side has already self vented this would give the engine crew the opportunity to push the fire out the B & C side of the structure.

As an engine officer we would attempt to push the fire out the B & C side of the structure. All members would stay in at minimum of voice contact at all times, and the determination of abondoning the attack would be made when we had high heat banking down with zero visibility and not enough water to make a knock on the fire.

As the chief officer arriving on scene I would call for a Box upgrading from the working still already coming in, sound the emergency traffic tone over the radio and order everyone out of the structure along with sounding the air horns, once personnel were out of the structure, I would call for a PAR, once everyone was accounted for we would go defensive with 2.5" lines along with deck guns to put a knock on the fire.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 20, 2008 at 8:20pm

If they're on the fire ground they should have PPE on. Not having fully staffed truck companies doesn;t prevent us from trying to work succesfully. This is the problem of the modern fire service and that is why we need CSF.

The engine has moved into the building before the window in the front is vented, is there anything the outside vent team of the truck might report report to the engine officer while venting sides B, A then C? We're talking coordination, here.

I agree that 2 1/2 might have been the answer but can we do this with a three FF engine? If not, wht would the engine officer do to be successful?

Michael Bricault said:

Hey Jim. I know this first observation is outside the parameters of your question, but I am a firm believer that safety issues, especially those caught on film, must be addressed and pointed out so that others will not view these film clips and think this is the proper way of doing business.
Specifically, the huge safety concern is the video showing MANY, MANY firefighters walking around and even participating while wearing no gear or wearing varying and improper levels of PPE. Anyone operating on this fire ground that is not wearing full PPE should be kicked off the fire ground; period.
As to the specific question of venting and coordination, I think the definitive action by a Truck Company in this video would be vertical ventilation. That being said, I believe it is doubtful that a department, particularly the smaller FD's that do not operate true Truck/Ladder Companies, will ever be able to accomplish venting the roof in a timely enough manner so their actions will assist the Engine advance. The Engine in the video is already prepared to move in.
A true Ladder Company has 4 firefighters minimum that are responding on and functioning as a dedicated Truck Company on a Ladder apparatus. They are responsible for forcible entry, search, rescue, ventilation, salvage and overhaul. Speaking generally, it is usually only the larger cities that operate a true Ladder Company. Most (not all but most) smaller FD's have a skeleton crew on the ladder and the result is a ladder apparatus driven to the scene by one or two firefighters. This is not a ladder company but rather an apparatus brought to the scene in the case that an elevated master stream is required.
Now for those four or more firefighters that are dedicated as and operate as a Truck Co; they are assigned to, riding on and responding with a ladder apparatus; they should have the training and experience to operate efficiently enough to get the ladder up, throw a ground ladder for a secondary means of escape and get up to the roof to take care of business in a rapid, safe, TIMELY and professional manner. Remember, cutting the roof after the fire is knocked down is nothing more than performing the essential tactic of “unnecessary damage”.
IF, the responding ladder company is not a truly dedicated or operated as a Truck Company and/or the ladder must consider horizontal ventilation then said horizontal venting must be performed in a safe and responsible manner; i.e. start close to the fire-not 30 ft. away at the front door. Clean out the windows in immediate proximity to the fire (the B side), moving toward the A side, THEN vent the front windows (A side) so the front door can be safely forced for the Engine advance. And none of this addresses the most important Truck Company function- Search and Rescue. Finally, someone from the Truck must also open up the rear ( C side) for the Engine, their advance and as a possible escape route.
The resulting dynamic combustion seen in the video clip was inevitable due to poor venting tactics.
As to the Engine concerns with this video... company continuity/integrity must be addressed well before this event ever takes place. Firefighters must be taught, instructed, mentored and have it just plain beaten into their heads that Engine Companies are a team, they function together as a team, enter together as a team and leave together as a team.
In regard to the video, I am reminded of a fire service "true-ism" that was taught to me by an old crusty fireman way back when. Part of this proverb states that, “If the fire has control of more than two (2) residential size rooms then the Engine MUST initially stretch the 2 1/2 line at a minimum”. The video clip is a testament to the knee jerk reaction firefighting that takes place because of a lack of experience or a lack of training and education spawning improper decisions that serve only to reinforce poor tactical judgment and decision making.
In other words, "We always stretch that line" may have worked for you in the past but we must be thinking firefighters and not reacting ones. Once again Tom Brennen was correct when he pointed out that many firefighters that always stretch the 1 3/4 are reacting and not thinking. This particular fire is screaming to the Engine Co to catch the hydrant (don’t wait for the 2nd due engine) and to stretch a large (2 ½ in.) handline. While the Truck is opening up, the Engine should be using the time to insure a water supply and to properly stretch and flake out their large hand line that is tipped with a solid bore nozzle.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 20, 2008 at 8:26pm

You bring up a good point. How long does it take to knock down a fire when we have the correct flow? Is this something we learned when we went though basic fire service training? Yet, How often do we see engine companies keep figting a fire even though it can't be controled because we haven't reached the critical flow to win?

How would you as an officer on the engine keep constant communication with your engine company? Where would a three FF hose team be placed on the line in a residence?

Jeff Schwering said:

As a Truck Officer, the C side of the structure is the place to vent to assist the engine crew in pushing the fire out the B/C corner.
As an Engine Officer, with the amount of fire showing, I would call for a 2.5 in line to be stretched initially, "big fire, big water". If my company was not making headway on the fire, it would be time to pull out and try something different. Constant communication with my company is a must.
As a Chief, strike an additional alarm, ensure a RIT team is in place, make sure all members were accounted for, Pull everyone back and make sure my officers are on the same page, before we got a member seriously injured or killed.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 20, 2008 at 10:02pm

Hi Jim, I really don't think an engine should have a problem advancing a 2 1/2/ in. even with three people. The time consuming portion of the stretch is securing the water source. In fact, the flex time needed to secure the water supply, stretch and prepare to enter should be all the time a Truck should need, even an under staffed Truck, to perform ventilation.
In fact the time delay on the engine preping may be exactly what the Truck needs to perform proper vertical ventilation and create the coordinated attack; each company maximizing the breaks they get. The key is communication between the Engine and Ladder; talking to each other over the fire ground radio so all personnel know what is going on.
In this particular instance, the engine needs to hold their advance for a moment while the Ladder prepares the building for the attack. In the case of a three man engine stretching a 2 1/2 that wouldbe all the time the Ladder needs to get their venting job done.
The one thing not addressed is who is performing the search and what conditions are they facing. The video creates an interesting question; is a search possible and if so, who would perform it?
In the end, I am a firm believer that firefighting is a tactic that is supposed to support those that are performing the search. L.I.P. Life safety, Incident stabilization, Property conservation.

Jim Mason said:

If they're on the fire ground they should have PPE on. Not having fully staffed truck companies doesn;t prevent us from trying to work succesfully. This is the problem of the modern fire service and that is why we need CSF.

The engine has moved into the building before the window in the front is vented, is there anything the outside vent team of the truck might report report to the engine officer while venting sides B, A then C? We're talking coordination, here.

I agree that 2 1/2 might have been the answer but can we do this with a three FF engine? If not, wht would the engine officer do to be successful?

Michael Bricault said:

Hey Jim. I know this first observation is outside the parameters of your question, but I am a firm believer that safety issues, especially those caught on film, must be addressed and pointed out so that others will not view these film clips and think this is the proper way of doing business.
Specifically, the huge safety concern is the video showing MANY, MANY firefighters walking around and even participating while wearing no gear or wearing varying and improper levels of PPE. Anyone operating on this fire ground that is not wearing full PPE should be kicked off the fire ground; period.
As to the specific question of venting and coordination, I think the definitive action by a Truck Company in this video would be vertical ventilation. That being said, I believe it is doubtful that a department, particularly the smaller FD's that do not operate true Truck/Ladder Companies, will ever be able to accomplish venting the roof in a timely enough manner so their actions will assist the Engine advance. The Engine in the video is already prepared to move in.
A true Ladder Company has 4 firefighters minimum that are responding on and functioning as a dedicated Truck Company on a Ladder apparatus. They are responsible for forcible entry, search, rescue, ventilation, salvage and overhaul. Speaking generally, it is usually only the larger cities that operate a true Ladder Company. Most (not all but most) smaller FD's have a skeleton crew on the ladder and the result is a ladder apparatus driven to the scene by one or two firefighters. This is not a ladder company but rather an apparatus brought to the scene in the case that an elevated master stream is required.
Now for those four or more firefighters that are dedicated as and operate as a Truck Co; they are assigned to, riding on and responding with a ladder apparatus; they should have the training and experience to operate efficiently enough to get the ladder up, throw a ground ladder for a secondary means of escape and get up to the roof to take care of business in a rapid, safe, TIMELY and professional manner. Remember, cutting the roof after the fire is knocked down is nothing more than performing the essential tactic of “unnecessary damage”.
IF, the responding ladder company is not a truly dedicated or operated as a Truck Company and/or the ladder must consider horizontal ventilation then said horizontal venting must be performed in a safe and responsible manner; i.e. start close to the fire-not 30 ft. away at the front door. Clean out the windows in immediate proximity to the fire (the B side), moving toward the A side, THEN vent the front windows (A side) so the front door can be safely forced for the Engine advance. And none of this addresses the most important Truck Company function- Search and Rescue. Finally, someone from the Truck must also open up the rear ( C side) for the Engine, their advance and as a possible escape route.
The resulting dynamic combustion seen in the video clip was inevitable due to poor venting tactics.
As to the Engine concerns with this video... company continuity/integrity must be addressed well before this event ever takes place. Firefighters must be taught, instructed, mentored and have it just plain beaten into their heads that Engine Companies are a team, they function together as a team, enter together as a team and leave together as a team.
In regard to the video, I am reminded of a fire service "true-ism" that was taught to me by an old crusty fireman way back when. Part of this proverb states that, “If the fire has control of more than two (2) residential size rooms then the Engine MUST initially stretch the 2 1/2 line at a minimum”. The video clip is a testament to the knee jerk reaction firefighting that takes place because of a lack of experience or a lack of training and education spawning improper decisions that serve only to reinforce poor tactical judgment and decision making.
In other words, "We always stretch that line" may have worked for you in the past but we must be thinking firefighters and not reacting ones. Once again Tom Brennen was correct when he pointed out that many firefighters that always stretch the 1 3/4 are reacting and not thinking. This particular fire is screaming to the Engine Co to catch the hydrant (don’t wait for the 2nd due engine) and to stretch a large (2 ½ in.) handline. While the Truck is opening up, the Engine should be using the time to insure a water supply and to properly stretch and flake out their large hand line that is tipped with a solid bore nozzle.

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