To Vent or Not to Vent......

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Anthony Avillo on April 14, 2008 at 8:44am

due to the fact that most of our high rises on either on the cliffs facing NYC or the cliffs facing tyhe meadowlands, we almost always have a wind-driven fire issue
Couple that with the fact that the occupants usually defeat the self-closing mech on the door and the door stays open createing some blow-torch fire conditions for us
First horizontal -- we try to check the wind's reaction of the floor below (at least it's in the SOP) If it is favorable and when the hall door and the apt door are open, the wijnd blows from the strairwell to the apt, we attack
If the wind blows toward the stairs, we know we will have a hard time and hold off on venting. Unfortuantley at the last 3 big H. R. fires we had, the windows failed early
These resulted in civilian fatalities in all 3 (probably prior to FD intervention) and FF burn injuries as well as the wind blew the fire at the attack team
Sometimes the best thing to do is to close the door and let the fire burn down to a manageable size while setting up an attack to meet the potential -- this means lots of manpower and large liines. We do not use lightweight deck guns although i am a fan of this -- we don't have them
I also like the idea of PPE at the bottom of the attack stairs provided it is not done with a gas fan -- don't intro toxic atmospheres into an already bad sit.
Verttical vent -- someone has to get to the top of the stairs to open the bulkhead. This is even more ciritcal when the fire is close to the roof. This has to be coordinated and may cause a delay in ther attack if the attack stairs are the same stairs as the bulkhead making the attack stair and the vent stairs the same artery -- (and it usualy is, especially when u consider that most buildings have fire doors that close around the elevator shafts, cutting the floor in half an rendering the stairwell opposite the fire only useful for evac )( not necessary in most cases) or for FF travel in safe stairwells away from the fire.
The problem u run into is that overzealous engine guys want to get in there while vent guys are in the stairwell. When they open the door to ther hallway, they genrally fricassee the vent team. I've seen fireballs erupt from these hallways that then travel up the sdtairwell toward the roof. It might be best to keep the biggest , toughest ladder guy with the attack team till the vent team is back at the fire floor or in asafe area aftyer venting. If two stairwells go to the roof, it is best to take the remote stairs, cross the roof anfd then open the door on the roof. If not, it HAS to be coordinated
Venting improperly may be worse than not venting at all!!

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on April 14, 2008 at 12:14pm

Thanks for the great answer Chief.

Okay, if I send a team to the roof, they open up the door and inform the IC. Do they leave the roof before the fire floor gives it a test or do they stay there to see what happens?

Permalink Reply by Anthony Avillo on April 14, 2008 at 1:24pm

if they have another way down, they can stay
if they don't , extreme caution must be exercised
If the air currents begin to blow in from the roof, they must immediately make a report to hold the attack and close the fire floor hallway door until they can close the roof door and get in a safe position

Horizontal ventilation and unintended consequences of the stack effect are usualy more severe at the fire's level
it is often a case-by-case basis
coordination in high rises is often extremely diffiult, especially if the departmnet has no SOP and/or does not experience many high-rise fires

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on May 14, 2008 at 9:31pm

I agree with Anthony and would add that I would advise against any ventilation at all until the possibility of a wind driven fire situation is eliminated. An uncoordinated vent of the bulkhead door or horizontal vent could be the trigger needed to cause failure of the windward window (s) in a wind driven fire situation. It the fire unit door is left open, the pressure differential caused by the venting activity in a wind driven fire could severly endanger the attack crew. The venting must not occur without the permission of the IC and only following his consulting with the still engine and truck officers.

The FDNY, Chicago FD and others, in cooperation with NIST recently concluded another round of test fires relating to wind driven fires. Saty tuned as the info comes out.

Remember, high-rises are not the only structures suseptable to wind driven fire scenarios. We had a 1st floor apartment fire that killed the occupant and caused the attack crew to retreat for their lives into the stairwell. Without the attack crew's knowledge, the occupant had returned to his apartment to retrieve his dog and as he opened the door the patio doors blew out and in seconde the entire hallway became an inferno. He was killed in his tracks and the brothers were lucky to escape.

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on May 15, 2008 at 7:37am

Thanks for your input Art,

One question I've always had is how do we check wind direction on the 20th floor in a building with fixed windows?

Permalink Reply by Anthony Avillo on May 15, 2008 at 2:32pm

if there is a fire, go the floor below and break them
it is explainable collateral damage and will alow u to check the wind direction at that level

if no fire, then u can slow things down and determine wind direction maybe from the roof -- there is no such urgency in this sit so don't do unnecessary damage

some depts are using glass cutters and suction cups to take out fixed windows -- cutting a window in a window
hope this helps
aa

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on May 15, 2008 at 6:44pm

As always, it does Chief

Thanks