2 1/2 in the High Rise Pack??

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brandon Krause on May 6, 2009 at 9:56pm

Joe,
I would run several drills with different crews to see which works best for your guys. I would also look at the flows you desire vs the flows you will get from each, if 1 3/4 gets what you want stick with it, if not out with it!

Permalink Reply by Antiquefirelt on May 7, 2009 at 10:00am

What is the age of the buildings in your community? Are the standpipes designed for 65 psi outlet pressure or the newer ones at 100 psi? The 1.75" gives you much greater friction loss, so in a limited pressure outlet your flow will be reduced. We know we need GPM, not PSI to kill the fire, so what ever setup gives me my target GPM or more would be "acceptable", but the 2.5" will always give you more. What type of fog nozzles are you using now? 100 psi nozzles and 1.75" lines are a recipe for disaster IMO. Even in the newer 100 psi systems, the nozzle won't get it's required flow if 50 psi is eaten up by FL. Bringing the 2.5" allows you the most firefighting potential in our handline arsenal. Going back to the street to retrieve a bigger weapon is not an option.

The only "pro" I can see for the 1.75" is speed and ease of the initial stretch, but the downside is that it's all for not if the GPM is not enough to overcome the BTU's and the GPM is not what the nozzle's capable of, it's what the system will give you when all the factors are tallied up.

Permalink Reply by Joe Pantaleo on May 7, 2009 at 12:02pm

I thank you brothers for your input. Adam, the buildings in town vary anywhere from over 100 yr old apartments to newly constructed condos & office buildings. We currently use a low pressure, adjustable fog- 150gpm @50psi, 200gpm @100psi. Yes, I agree, MORE GPM is better. Lot's of high-rise horror stories about more BTU'S than GPM, which is why this is now on the table. Our larger neighbor's (Chicago) now use a 2.5" high rise pack, but they also run a 5 man engine co. We need to run more drills with this pack and see how it goes. We'll have to be proficient at getting that thing streched properly to where we need it. Thanks again.

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on May 7, 2009 at 6:10pm

Hey Joe

I strongly recommend 2 1/2" hose for Standpipe kits for several reasons, let me share a few. Frist, the system was designed for 2 1/2" hose with a 1 1/8" smoothbore, any other set up is working outside of the intended perameters. Second, All standpipes are going to suffer from major scaling inside the standpipe. The smaller line is more apt to have reduced flow because of the chunks of crap that will infliltrate the line. Third, if you are using a standpipe, it is likely in a High-Rise. Imagine you arrive and have to decide which size line to use. The crews gambles and decides on the smaller 1 3/4" line. When they get to the fire floor it is determined that the smaller line isn't gong to cut it. Now you are stuck!. You have to wait for someone to bring you the needed line or send someone back down, Either way, you are losing time you can't afford to lose. In a nut shell, I can put out a small fire with a bigger line, but I can't put out a big fire with a small line. You may only have one shot. Don't waste it!
We also run smaller companies; so what did we do? We send more companies initially on that type of fire. We want 6 on the line. We have also trained on 2 1/2" line operations to teach personnel how to use this weapon effectively.

Good luck and be safe brother. Also, if you havn't already, please check out the High-Rise Group. Would love for you to join. Now let me duck and run before Ray catches on that I'm soliciting in this group.

Permalink Reply by Brandon Krause on May 10, 2009 at 7:49am

Has anyone used the lightweight 2 1/2 for highrise?

Permalink Reply by Russ Chapman on May 10, 2009 at 8:52am

Do not waste your time with lightwieght 2 1/2" hose. It kinks very badly, and there is not a type made that doesn't. Face it. It is a High Rise. Each FF should only carry one bundle, so use standard jacketed hose. It really does not matter in the end run because of the weight factor. You should NOT EVEN START a standpipe operation with out a minimum of 2 Engine companies, ( and I am talking small town, not 1710.).
As far as using 2 1/2" hose for standpipe ops. Like most of the responses say, standpipes are designed to be used with 2 1/2" hose and a 50 PSI nozzle. It should be a smoothbore...period (for you "break away:" guys, when is the last time your FF remembered to break the tip off?). Joe, research this "Start Water" discussions, as we all went through this before.

Brandon Krause said:

Has anyone used the lightweight 2 1/2 for highrise?

Permalink Reply by Joe Pantaleo on May 10, 2009 at 9:02pm

Thanks to everyone for your input. Great stuff! I have been on the side in favor of the 2.5, but I definitely learned some things that I did NOT know or did NOT think about, making me even more sold on it. I can only hope and prey that the "powers that be" will feel the same way. This website is !@#$% great! Thanks again, and I welcome any other thoughts or opinions. STAY SAFE!

Permalink Reply by brandon earley on May 10, 2009 at 10:26pm

you should check out 1.88 combat hose. i have heard great things about it. you get the gpm's of 2.5 and is easy to control like 1.75

Permalink Reply by Wesley Stephens on May 15, 2009 at 10:05am

The department I work for is currently going through the same issues. I am a training officer and am in favor of the 2.5 inch packs. Our current packs are 10 feet of 2.5, gated wye, 100 feet of 1 3/4, with 15/16 smooth bore (although some companies have 100 psi fogs for some reason). The main problem I have besides manpower, is that the way some of our standpipes are designed in our city is that only certain floors (1, 4, 7, 11, etc.) have a hook up for 2.5 inch hose. The floors in between have hook ups for 1.5 if they have hook ups at all.

The first line won't be to big of a problem, but the second line will be a much longer stretch. We only run 3 man Engine Companies, and the absolute best we could hope for is 4 people on each line, with the probability being 3 people. By the time you are finished making assignments you have long since run out of people.

I have wondered if a gated wye with two 2.5 outlets would supply enough water from the standpipe to supply 2 lines from one connection adequately. Any experiences or solutions would be greatly appreciated.

Permalink Reply by Antiquefirelt on May 16, 2009 at 7:26am

brandon earley said:

you should check out 1.88 combat hose. i have heard great things about it. you get the gpm's of 2.5 and is easy to control like 1.75

This isn't quite the whole story. The diameter of the hose is directly related to the potential GPM. At the same pressure 2.5" will flow more than 1.75", 1.88", or even 2.25" (haven't seen this yet). Many proponents of the 1.75" line will tell you you can increases the pressure to get 2.5" flows from the smaller line, but wouldn't the same be true of the 2.5". It really isn't even that close.
We run Ponn Conquest and Ponn Supreme 1.75" lines, which supposedly have a true diameter of about 1.9", and 225 gpm is about max w/o the FL really starting to take over. The turbulence caused in high flows in small diameters creates high FL. And it's not realistically manageable for operating while moving, you need to flow, stop, advance, flow, stop, advance. Flowing 180 gpm is pretty perfect for these lines and if we need more we stretch the big line.