Vertical venting discussion.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim Wilk on January 4, 2009 at 6:43pm

Jim,

On your comment about venting windows and what do people expect to happen. I have been to a few fires where people take out the windows before the line is in place and then are surprised when the place lights up. To me this is basic fire behavior. Now a days we are so busy with other training(Hazmat, trt, fire inspections, etc) that we forget the basics.



Jim Mason said:

Guys
I'm talking about setting the aerial to a roof that is 1 story tall. About 10-12 feet tall. If you have a one story building that is 20 feet tall I'd say use the aerial. Easiest ladder to set up, right? We won;t use the ladder below 30 degrees for fear of tipping the truck over, which has happpened here. The biggest probelms we have with 1 story aerail raises is the streets. We are almost always going off the side with the aerail ladder. On a one story that makes it dangerous. If we could get it over the rear or front of the rig , then we could do it if needed.

I think the video shows a couple more things for us good looking CSF members to consider. I think that all members in the decision making area of a structure fire sould be thinking stratgeically, at least to consider how they fit into the over all startigic situation. The guys on the roof are working without an officer, so they are in control of their own destiny. I asked before how did those windows below the roof get vented? If they did it, they are responsilbe to know that the fire can come out there. The fire building area is small and the windows are large in comparison. what did they expect to happen if they vented those windows? As for the IC, I ask can he see the fire building or is he sitting in his car? If so, where are the "sector chiefs" who are needed to report to the IC?
Also, what is the engine's report on how they are doing in the extiguishment of the fire? If the engine is delayed for any number of reasons, did they report? This could certainly hurt the roof team and put them in the position of the video (putting side the lack of egress for the roof members)
The IC should be able to predict what will happen when the windows gets vented too, if he can see the fire building. If not, is he putting those guys in harms way? I believe that he is.
One last point for the discussion - Do your depts send FF"s to the roofs of "taxpayers" with bar joist truss roof construction? We have a concern with that, due to the quick collapse conditions of non - combustilbe construction. I'm going to start a discussion on truss construction fires by itself but I'd just like to hear from you guys on this a bit

Jeff Schwering said:

I agree with the mobile flight of stairs, Brick. We have a shopping mall in town. Many years ago,our old Chief didin't think we needed to raise a ladder out of its bed on the incoming quint. We threw ground ladders that reached, barely, but reached. It was no fun humping tools and hose for a roof fire up a ground ladder. That mindset changed when that Chief left, now we make room for the quint.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on January 5, 2009 at 7:31pm

Yeah
Ain't that the truth. Can anybody disagree with this? We vent opposite the hose line and above the fire because it naturally goes up and out. So when we get members above the fire and they are having a problem it should not be that much of a surprise. I think that adding air to the fire is a mis understood fire behavior for many of our brothers and sisters. You know in the end , if we vent the fire and let it do what it wants t do there is much less danger. It's when the fire does it's thing and we are standing in the way it's a problem. I think that ventilation is one of the most mis understood functions on the fire ground. It really has to do with what are the needs of the engine and search teams.

Reports from the roof are important also - What should be expected from the roof team when it comes to radio reports? Does it make a difference what they see or not?

Permalink Reply by Tom Hofland on January 29, 2009 at 3:24pm

A couple of thoughts on this video...

The fire is in metro Southern California - Large busy, experienced, quality, aggressive department to remain incognito.

The building was built as is, a mother in law apartment above is on fire, trussed construction.

Upon arrival the fire had not vented any windows

The Vent crew used a ground ladder and had to shoot it "under" a power line.

Clearly the crew has challenges cutting the h***, if you watch the whole video they just aren't sure what to do. I'll bet they spanned 2 rafters with their louver... (wild conjecture on my part)

The initial attack encounters heavy heat in the stairwell and can not advance to the fire floor.

Gravel enters the hose line and clogs the fog nozzle, which does not have a solid bore insert. You see the crew come outside in the "full" video and throw it on the ground in anger.

The fire self vents out the windows progressively from Right to Left on the screen

The crew never completes the vent h*** and gets off the roof as the power line burns through and drops on them, the ladder (wooden thankfully, but thats another thread) catches fire and the second member received burns to his hands (incorrect PPE).


Lessons I learned from this incident:

Know how to cut a vent h*** in your sleep.

Have a solid bore insert in your fog nozzle.

Wear the right PPE.

Use wooden ladders, they withstand fire.

Expect things to fowl up.

Offensive operations require rapidly implemented redundancy in all critical assignments.


Tom

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on January 29, 2009 at 4:02pm

Great information brother Tom, thanks for sharing that

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on January 29, 2009 at 8:11pm

Thanks for the information Tom. I would be interested in seeing the whole video. We do have some folks around my dept. that like to admire their work, thankfully, this has not caused an injury. The problem is that "law, called Murphy".

Stay safe
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on January 29, 2009 at 9:50pm

Tom What a louver?
I was talking to a freind of mine this afternoon and we both agfreed that the basics are what guys need to repeat over and over. Without the basics being burned in our minds no one can look to see what is going on around us. This is beacuse we don;t want to be "embarrsed" by not being able to get the simple stuff done.
So the basics allows the situational awareness. The situational awarness allows the officer to do his/her job. the officer doing his job keeps the FF's safe. On and on it goes.
As an floating officer in the city I find that no matter how much you talk abouit it in the morning there is always going to be problems and often these problems pull my attention away from the big picture. there 's alot to be said for working with the same crew every day.
Another thing that my buddy and I talked about was soon after the guys on the crew all get to the same place in abilites, the team starts to break up becuase the guys want move on to either learn something new or get promoted.
We cn talk abpout situational awareness all we want , if the tteam doen't have the basics it won;t have the needed situational awareness.

Permalink Reply by Mark Langston on January 29, 2009 at 10:02pm

Jim,

Very true about we need to know the basics. We are becoming too specialized. Guys doing all kinds of different training but not going over pulling a line, or how to VES etc.. Basics.

Wasn't it Vince Lombardi that every year at the beginning of each season he would tell the veterans and rookies. "This is a football" And start at the very basics. The MLB teams in spring training go over all the basics that every high school player drills on. We need to do the same.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on January 30, 2009 at 12:01am

Welcome to CSF Mark,
I'm with you on the basics. We need to break thing up, as company officers. Use everything we can to train our folks. Winter is tough, but we can all adapt, Summer, pull lines, plan structures in your first due area, do whatever it takes. Sometime it is on the company officer to be the proactive one, not the popular one.

Stay Safe
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on January 30, 2009 at 12:09am

-Tom Brennen also had speeches and -isms about the basic. Tom always preached the basics and believed that the basics will make or break an incident. Brennen also taught that it was generally the lack of basics that got contributed to firefighters being killed.
-Mark, my personal feeling is that fire departments are becoming too diverse in their service deliveries and therefore spend to much time on maintaining diverse certifications and less and less time on our basic job; the very thing we exist for and the first word in our title- FIRE.
-One might argue that in order to maintain our proficiency, our excellence in service delivery and increase in firefighter safety that the fire department needs to stop cross training and getting into all manner of divergent service delivery and start refocusing our efforts, specializing, in our specific proclaimed area of expertise... firefighting.
-I'm not suggesting throwing the baby out with the bath water but, the fire service needs to begin addressing training and manpower shortages in order to reduce line of duty deaths. We must focus on the dangerous activity we say we are experts at, focus on the very activity that we engage in with any degree of frequency... firefighting.
-Can we provide other services? Sure, however we must be cautious to guard against what is happening to the fire service now; over-expansion. Some have even suggested the renaming of the fire department to the ems or rescue department because, "we really don't go to all that many fires anymore". If the Army followed that mentality they would be out of business since," they only engage in a war every decade or so".
-Some fire departments may not be responding to as many fires as they once did and yet just as many firefighters are dying each year as 20 and 30 years ago. We are no safer. Why? No training; too much time spent on training and maintaining certifications in none hazardous activities.
-Let's get back to our primary job which has become primarily overlooked- being firefighters.
KEEP THE FAITH

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on January 30, 2009 at 12:50am

Extremely well said Bric

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on January 30, 2009 at 12:56am

I totally agree Mark

John Wooden the great UCLA basketball coach would teach his freshmen coming on the team how to put on their socks. Success is in the details.

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on January 30, 2009 at 10:02am

Maybe this video is an example of using the excuse to "just go defensive". Now by no means at all am I second guessing the actions of this crew or their dept. Wasn't there, don't know any of the particulars, but here is what I think.

Lack of adequate or non existant training on fireground basic stuff. Some bosses wanting to micro-manage every detail so everyone knows they're in charge (in case we didn't hear them shout "I'm in charge"). No pre-assigned duties to personnel prior to arrival (the wait til I tell you what to do and how to do it theory). Lack of trust in the decision making process. etc etc

This kind of "leading" is what I believe puts us in the position of "There is no one in that bldg. so we'll just let it burn to ground" Teach us and train us on the jobs to do and we will become proficient, efficient, effective and confident in our abilities so we can actually save property too.

Recently I had a Lt. tell me that we train all the time while we're out on runs. While some may see this as true, I disagree because the fireground or any other emergency scenerio isn't the place to train. It's the place to implement what you've learned in training and accomplish your task. While some training is obtained later into an emergency, I don't agree outset of the call is the place to be introduced to techniques.

Again the point of my rambling is not to knock the crews from the video, mearly to rant about hearing more excuses on why we (I) can't or don't get more training when the main reason we have to train is so we can reduce the possibilty of becoming a statistic because of a lack of knowledge (training) and actually do our job.

Sorry guys, I feel pretty passionate about what we are becoming as far as the fire service. This may have been better posted under Art's blog but........

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