Use of TIC's for Investigation for Fire Location

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 20, 2008 at 10:58pm

Brick,

I definately like the comment about Mr. Murphy and not callin in sick, hope you don't mind Bro, but I'm going to use that when I go back after Christmas! Vacation has it's benefits.

Stay Safe Group!
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 21, 2008 at 1:04pm

-Jeff,
-help yourself. I hate that Murphy guy. I wish he would call in sick once in a while.
-Stay safe
BRICK

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 23, 2008 at 4:50pm

I haven;t been out for a couple of days becasue of holiday prep so reading this again was good.
I gotta tell you guys, CSF is the most active page on the site and it's becasue of everyone's positive ideas.
I'm looking forward to a group meeting at FDIC. By the way, that 's on Tuesday Nite of that week now! Location to be announced.
'nuff said

Ok, let me answer my own question, mostly with another question.
I don;t think there is a better way to find out what the situation is than with a 360, but who should be doing it?
Should the chief of the operation?, Should the officer of the first due engine? The truck CO?
I like the large building drive around idea , if you can get close enough to it to see from the ambo seats.
What we do here in Chgo is send a FF to the rear from the first due truck. What he./she does is size up, report to command, ventilate and search (if possible to do so safely). The reasoning behind it is if the an offcier does it, can he go to work in the rear if he needs to be somewhere else ( like the front of the building ) to work with his crew? As in, stretching a hose line for extinguishment. Or lead the inteior search team?

Also,Can anyone think of things that need to be done in the rear or should be reported from the rear that will help the FF's working inside?
I say yes! What do you guys think?
So here 's the question for anyone who's dept does a 360, should we send a member to the rear to perform duties and will it get us over the "hump" of not being able to use the TIC as the UL studies have described for FF safety in initial size up?

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 26, 2008 at 6:01pm

-Jim, we do something similar in Albuquerque in that one of the companies will send an individual to the rear of the occupancy to perform a size and report to command.
-Who this individual is will vary based on the company officers discretion. It is usually based on the firefighters experience. Obviously the company officer would have no problem sending a senior firefighter to perform the size up.
-By comparison, the company officer would probably not send an inexperienced rookie to perform the size up but would rather perform the size up himself.
-In an urban environment, performing the 360 drive around with the apparatus during the response is not always practical or even possible. Therefore, a firefighter must be sent to the rear of the occupancy to perform the reconnaissance mission for the IC.
-Duties at the rear (C side) of the occupancy include forcible entry (for obvious reasons) ventilation, size up, search for locating the victim High Target Areas in order to focus the interior search effort, jumpers or those that have already jumped and areas of access to the occupancy.
-There is a lot to do at the rear of the occupancy, making it one of the prime areas of focus during operations; especially for the Ladder Company.
-Stay safe

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on December 26, 2008 at 7:42pm

Brick,

In an earlier post, I suggested that we send an ambulance around to conduct a "drive around" 360. I was not suggesting that this would take the place of a 360 if humanly possible. As I said earlier, we do the "drive around" 360 on very large buildings, occupancies in a long, connected row of a block or other similar occupancies where it is physically impossible for an officer to walk the 360.

I am in complete agreement that the officer, whenever possible should conduct the 360. I also agree that the "check" of the rear is a priority tactical issue. As you suggest, the rear needs to be opened at a minimum, checked for victems or jumpers and information gathered for the continuing size-up. Generally our first due truck will "check" the rear as part of the outside team duties.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 26, 2008 at 9:15pm

Yeah Art
Getting to the rear of the building for a first hand look is certainly better than driving if we can do it. I'm sure no one was suggesting that there is an easier way other than that. The drive would be if it were a very large building with access around it. It's a good idea if the walk was a marathon distance.
But do you think that the rear operations can get us over the hump of not being able to use the TIC as was described in the UL studies?

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on December 27, 2008 at 2:21pm

-Jim I believe that operations conducted at the rear of the occupancy do support the furtherance of the overall operation with or without the assistance of the TIC.
-Activities conducted at the rear of the occupancy are an example of good basic firefighting skills and operations and good basic skills should never be sacrificed no matter what new techno gadget is being used; i.e. the TIC.
-The basics are essential and ultimately work; otherwise they would not be the basics.
-Art, I was not disputing the soundness of sending a unit to do a 360 drive around, just pointing out what we do in Albuquerque and that many times we find that the drive around technique is not possible due to the urban compaction.
-Stay safe

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on January 5, 2009 at 7:42pm

It seems just like the IC sometimes has to pull information out of the FF's and officers on the scene. The rear FF can help us alot when comes to getting the needed parameters of the situation. I think that if a FF in the rear can get to a place where there is NOT any fire extension, then he can force entry, pull some ceiling and look to see if there are trusses exposed by heat or even fire in them. If this is reported to the IC it may help determine if there is a reason for the engine and search crews to enter the building at all. For me , if there is truss as ceiling joists on the first floor there is probably truss in the floor.
The rear FF can also open up the rear basement door or windows to see what comes out. Fire or heat and smoke can be "read" to determine the conditions for the FF's starting the entry in the front of the buidling. If it's clear, pull some ceiling, again to look for the truss with fire in them. I think sending a FF rather than a command staff person is better beacuse the FF can work when something needs to be done rather than the officer needing to be back up in the front of the buidling to lead the engine or search team.

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