Vertical Vent

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Comment by Dave LeBlanc on November 3, 2009 at 6:52am

Another question about peaked roof ventilation. Is it always the best tactic used in most residential fires? Certainly with balloon frame it is important, but what about platform construction? Especially with greater roof pitches (7 pitch or higher). If the fire is in the attic then there is no questions. But what about a first floor fire? How do you counter plywood floors and storage in the attic space? How do you counter 9 or 10 feet of height from the roof surface to the sheetrock ceiling below?

Comment by Dave LeBlanc on November 3, 2009 at 6:47am

Another thought is that, even with a plywood roof, if you cut through thr top at the ridge you can eliminate the top horizontal cut. This roof isn't ridge vented, but the plywood should still stop at the top of the rafters.

In other examples of the louver cut I have seen it so the bigger piece of roof end up aboout the roof, not in the hole. It provided some protection for the brothers operating. If there was heavy smoke, or high heat, wouldn't the bottom firefighter take quite a beating here?

Comment by IndianaFireNews-Brandon Roark on February 15, 2009 at 9:56pm

Frank, great video, I just taught Ventilation to a group of FF I/II's. This is a great aid in instruction and I appalude your dedication to putting together this video for all of us to discuss. I, being a eastcoaster by birth and then confused by living out west and now in the midwest, want to pose a question regarding your first statement.

"This cut works great and dosn't require the hole to be pulled. - I have to admit, I think if given the option i would rather pull a hole. My rational is that if my tool loses "bite" i would fall back away from the hole. Having to punch the hole with a tool on a smoke obscured roof I may miss my target in the anticiapation of hitting "roof". Thus driving my tool and balance into into the emptiness of the freshly created vent hole. Just a thought? and to be fair I am an engine guy, so me being on the roof is a problem within itself;)

Comment by Paul J De Bartolomeo on October 24, 2008 at 7:15pm

With peaked roof ventalation we are normally speaking about a private dwelling. In my experience the 7/11 cut provides adequate vent for the companies below and is quick and easy to cut and pull. Most importantly the 7/11 cut can be done from the safety of the roof ladder. This version of a louver cut, and even the traditional 4x4 seem like overkill for a P.D. in my opinion, and they force the members to work off of the roof ladder which is very dangerous

Comment by Eric Hankins on October 23, 2008 at 6:47pm

Frank,

i aggree Brother. We have actually started to teach our recuits to sound the roof and tell me where there IS NOT a rafter. This is much easier to do. Once you have identified a span that does not have a rafter/truss (this is the west coast we're talking about) you make a plunge cut with the saw and push the saw away from you until you hit a rafter. Now pull the saw back to you and find the next one. Now you have an idea what the span is between rafters. Roll the second rafter (the one you pulled back and found), continue the head cut and roll one, two, or how ever many you/your officer determine necessary. Now drop down a little bit and start making your dice cuts. Make you dice cuts near the "mid-span" between rafters and make as many as needed to cover the head cut. Finally make you bottom cut to connect the dice cuts. Louver the cuts based on the wind and puch the ceiling.

"Rolling" two rafters is a good start. Rolling two gives you about a 4' x 3' hole. Once the hole is opened up, the saw person may continue to enlarge the hole by rolling more rafters and adding dice cuts.

I tried to post the link to the training bulletin on my first reply but if any of you were not able to connect to it, go to www.norcalfools.com and click on the training link. It is listed under in the training bulletins called Multi-Roll.pdf.

Keep training Brothers, It's what we do!!!

Comment by Frank Ricci on October 22, 2008 at 8:01pm

To me the louver cut, all the panels will louver. On this cut at times they will all fall in when you make the last bottom cut towards the ladder. Somethimes they will hang up and have to be knock in. On a ply wood roof it will have a greater chance of louvering.
Note I will sound a roof to get on it, but I do not sound to find rafters, hell if you took down a photo on the wall in my house there is aleast a few holes. I get up there and cut a hole and push down the cieling. By no means is this the only why to cut a roof. Listen to your officers follow your SOPs and get out and train. No matter what cut you make. Make the one you trained on and praticed on. Always cut the hole over the fire and as close to the ridge as possible.

Comment by Todd McKee on October 22, 2008 at 7:49pm

Great Idea Brother! But could you give me te differences between this cut and a louvered cut. I am starting to get confused Todd McKee

Comment by Frank Ricci on October 22, 2008 at 7:43pm

Note it took less than 3 min to get the hole and push down the ceiling.

Comment by Frank Ricci on October 22, 2008 at 7:32pm

Thanks Eric,
Please post your bulletin on the Tactical Building Blocks Site. Being scrutinized is ok with me. This is what this site is for to share discuses and learn. I am a fan of this cut and use it as my primary way to open a roof. I learned it after comparing cuts on vacant and timing how long it took to open. This cut is quicker to make than a traditional 4x4 in most cases and you won’t have to get off balance to pull it. If you are going to make a 4x4 instead of making the cut out at the top I teach to just make one extra cut down the middle so you don’t have to pull it. I agree with leaving the saw running, this was done during a recruit class. We have all the recruits cut a 4x4 with just an axe and cut two holes, one with a cut off saw and one with a chain saw. I personally am a fan of the chain saw on any roof that has a pitch. I will post this same cut with the other saw after I cut it down. On some of these things we will all agree to disagree. Please post your cut, ideally on an acquired structure and not a prop. Note if this was a ply wood roof the saw goes right through it. This is a built up of roof with 1x6s with groves. Yes this cut if a ply wood roof will produce louvers or will drop the small panel through the hole. This is why we cut the bottom cut last so you are working towards safety. Many of our roofs have any wear from 2 to 7 layers of shingles or plywood over tong and grove. Note code only allows 2. Tell that to the contractor! Trying to pull the traditional 4x4 on a plank roof, it takes awhile. As for standing on the axe or halligan it works great and is an effective way to extend reach. Based on fire conditions and pitch the other firefighter should stay on the roof ladder.
Two roof ladders is not an option for us or most departments. We have great staffing with 24 on the box that arrives in minutes of each other. Staffing is a minimum of 4 on the truck and engine. To put up another ladder would take personal from other tasks that for us have a higher priority. In our department we have proved to be safe, efficient and effective on roof work. Most of all our work is in balloon frame structures. To answer the other question, yes I have made this cut under fire conditions on all types of pitches and found it very effective. Our general rule is cut a hole that is at least 3 bays then push down the ceiling. Then you can extend the hole. I think we started something great that all will benefit. All you need to post your cut is a digital camera. Record the cut or any drill and the file is ready to up load.
Be Safe

Comment by Eric Hankins on October 22, 2008 at 4:17pm

Out here on the West Coast, this cut is called the multi-roll louver. It is a very effective cut and especially easy to make larger if needed.

Then first advantage to the MRL is that it is not neccesary to cut right up next to the truss (or rafter). The dice cuts split the difference making it faster to place the cuts. The normal 4'X4' louver cut takes 4 cuts. A normal MRL only takes 5 but the sequence moves faster.

As for which way to roll the louvers, it depends on the wind. You always want to roll them away from the wind, so the venturi (sp?) effect helps draw the smoke out.

I personally would have made the head cut first to identify where my trusses were. Another nice trick is to get that saw vertical or 90 degreess from the roof. use only enough bar to cut through the material and decking and you will feel the truss MUCH better. I'm not a fan of the "gauge" on the bar, but thats just me.

I agree that if the roof is sound, then working away from the roof ladder is safer than getting off balance by trying to stay on it. Keep extra personnel on the ladder to keep the weight distribution but the Saw man should be able to move freely around the ladder.

Frank makes a great point about overlapping the cuts. The more roofing material there is, the more likely cuts that don't have a 2"-3" overlap won't cut all the way through the decking.

To extend the cut, continue the head cut away from the fire side as far as needed then add dice cuts. Finish with the bottom cut and louver the new cuts.

Last thing I will offer, then I will shut up, is keep the saw running until the hole is opened up and the job is done. Depending on smoke conditions on the roof, you may not be able to get it started again if needed.

I have added a training bulletin that our FOOLS chapter has put together on the MRL.

Thank you Frank for posting this video. I can only imagine the pressure of making a training video and then putting it on the net to be scrutinized.

Keep up the great work Brother,

Eric Hankins

http://norcalfools.com/files/Training/TrainingBulletins/MultirollTB.pdf

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