Who do we allow to participate?

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Permalink Reply by Rick Fritz on November 16, 2008 at 6:59pm

Certified people only should be allowed on calls.There are an awful lot of "wannabes" out there that you become resposible for.

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Permalink Reply by Larry Lasich on November 16, 2008 at 7:39pm

Rick Fritz said:

Certified people only should be allowed on calls.There are an awful lot of "wannabes" out there that you become resposible for.

Fair. If the "Probie" isn't up to speed on interior attack, can they be used for defensive or exposure protection?
If you want to check out the 'Train on Sunday' thread for where we went back and forth on this.

And thanks for your thoughts.
Larry

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Permalink Reply by Chris Fleming on November 17, 2008 at 8:23pm

The question of who should be allowed to do what on a particular call depends on your pool of available personnel. This gets really tricky for some volunteer departments. The two departments I served with had no other entrance process other than a vote by current membership. Other volunteer departments require an application process and an interview some even go so far as to administer a physical agility. The higher your standards the more capable firefighters you will have. Unfortunately, it also means you may have fewer firefighters. I agree with Rick, only certified people should be allowed to respond to emergencies. When you show up in a piece of fire apparatus, or with a plate and flashing light on your POV the public has a certain expectation of the level of your performance. If you show up and say, "I just drive" or "I don't do interior firefighting" you expose that member to a potentially very dangerous situation as far as their health and safety is concerned, and open the department up to liability. I live in a predominantly rural state with many volunteer departments, so I have an idea of the crunch those departments are in to get enough people to the scene, but do you really want to roll the dice with the public and your members? I know this will be unpopular with many folks, but I don't think anyone under the age of 21 should be allowed to respond to calls. When I hear of LODDs with kids 15-18 years old it drives me crazy. I believe there was a case in Pennsylvania with a kid responding to a call on his bicycle and getting killed. Totally unacceptable! If they are accepted as junior members or whatever, they can do stuff at the firehouse or fund raisers, but should NOT be involved in emergency response. There are other options for understaffed departments, automatic aid, mutual aid, or something. Please, keep the kids in your community safe.

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Permalink Reply by Larry Lasich on November 17, 2008 at 10:25pm

Chris Fleming said:

The question of who should be allowed to do what on a particular call depends on your pool of available personnel. This gets really tricky for some volunteer departments. The two departments I served with had no other entrance process other than a vote by current membership. Other volunteer departments require an application process and an interview some even go so far as to administer a physical agility. The higher your standards the more capable firefighters you will have. Unfortunately, it also means you may have fewer firefighters. I agree with Rick, only certified people should be allowed to respond to emergencies. When you show up in a piece of fire apparatus, or with a plate and flashing light on your POV the public has a certain expectation of the level of your performance. If you show up and say, "I just drive" or "I don't do interior firefighting" you expose that member to a potentially very dangerous situation as far as their health and safety is concerned, and open the department up to liability. I live in a predominantly rural state with many volunteer departments, so I have an idea of the crunch those departments are in to get enough people to the scene, but do you really want to roll the dice with the public and your members? I know this will be unpopular with many folks, but I don't think anyone under the age of 21 should be allowed to respond to calls. When I hear of LODDs with kids 15-18 years old it drives me crazy. I believe there was a case in Pennsylvania with a kid responding to a call on his bicycle and getting killed. Totally unacceptable! If they are accepted as junior members or whatever, they can do stuff at the firehouse or fund raisers, but should NOT be involved in emergency response. There are other options for understaffed departments, automatic aid, mutual aid, or something. Please, keep the kids in your community safe.

I was thinking more in terms of someone that might be a little old or out of shape for interior but is a cautious, capable tender driver or pump operator. Or, Someone who has not had a chance to go thru the hot house, but who(under the direction of a crew leader) could man an exposure protection line.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Fleming on November 18, 2008 at 6:49am

I hear where you're coming from Larry, but in my mind older or out of shape members are a similar situation. This is a problem throughout the fire service whether it's a paid or volunteer department and one that is a political hand grenade. I'm not saying that these are not valuable or useful members, but I think emergency response puts them and other people at unecessary risk. Even capable tanker drivers are subject to great physical and emotional stress during an emergency and they can hurt themselves or others. Part of this discussion is where does personal responsibility end and department policy start. As I said, that is a really tough nut to crack, but I think if we are going to seriously reduce firefighter deaths and injuries we have to take this issue on.

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Permalink Reply by Larry Lasich on November 18, 2008 at 1:23pm

What about having people that don't want to get hot at all being used to cover EMS runs? If they are up to speed about what to expect during an extrication, could they go inside the car and protect c-spine, talk with the patient, keep the tarps in place, etc?

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Permalink Reply by Marty Mayes on November 18, 2008 at 2:32pm

Larry, I am with you on this one. I feel this issue really speaks to the management capabilities of the departments. We have a few guys who just want to drive, even though they are fully trained and certified to carry out all fireground activities. So we develop them to be the best drivers we have. They "specialize" in thier task. In the fire service,we never seem to have an issue with guys who just want to do truck work or engine work, do we? So why have an issue with a guy who wishes to specialize in other less glamorous fireground duties. It is my personal opinion that the fire service is becoming a jack of all trades and master of none. This can cause a dangerous trend if we are not careful, maybe it already has. While I do not wish to discount any of the services we offer these days, can a paramedic who rides an engine really devote all of his time and training to fire? We are the only public service out there that empoyees this model.In police, military and to a degree EMS, when the job becomes more demanding or dangerous, they offer more specialized training.They then allow that person to work in that area based on the fact he/she is better prepared for the job. I feel that a basic knowledge base followed by a specialized training could provide a safer and overall efficient fireground.

Please, before I get all the negative replies, these are ideas for discussion, not policies.

Thanks,
Marty

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Permalink Reply by Rick Fritz on November 18, 2008 at 4:45pm

If the "Probie" isn't up to speed on the interior attack, then someone needs to grab his or her coattail, and SHOW THEM HOW, it does not have to be mean or demeaning or boot campish, How else are they going to get up to speed, if they object, find someone who won't. (object) I washed a lot of parking lots, put out enough trash, and was SHOWN how to fight fire by some very patient firemen.

Larry Lasich said:

Rick Fritz said:

Certified people only should be allowed on calls.There are an awful lot of "wannabes" out there that you become resposible for.

Fair. If the "Probie" isn't up to speed on interior attack, can they be used for defensive or exposure protection?
If you want to check out the 'Train on Sunday' thread for where we went back and forth on this.

And thanks for your thoughts.
Larry

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Permalink Reply by Larry Lasich on November 18, 2008 at 4:56pm

If the person joined the department on Monday and the fire happens on Wednesday he probably will not have had a bunch of evolutions in the hot house.

He could however get to ride to the fire, pull exterior lines, get a taste of what it's like and feel like a big part of the team.

Rick Fritz said:

If the "Probie" isn't up to speed on the interior attack, then someone needs to grab his or her coattail, and SHOW THEM HOW, it does not have to be mean or demeaning or boot campish, How else are they going to get up to speed, if they object, find someone who won't. (object) I washed a lot of parking lots, put out enough trash, and was SHOWN how to fight fire by some very patient firemen.

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