First in Company Responsibilites

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by William Anderson on May 17, 2008 at 1:47am

It definately takes some getting used to, but like just about everything we do in the fire service, this subject does take some practice and proactive thought otherwise you'll get in over your head real fast. I wanted to start this group since nobody really had a discussion group pertaining to rural water supply. What are kinds of buildings primarily reside in your rural water area? Do you have tenders due on your still alarm or are they are specially called item? Looking foward to seeing what everyone else does so that we can improve our operation here.

Permalink Reply by Wesley Hickman on May 20, 2008 at 12:15pm

I am coming from almost ten years in the fire service. All except the past two has been volunteer. The volunteer side is a whole different world than the paid. At work, I have a constant water supply. Out in the rural area where I volunteer there are only a couple of hydrants. At a working fire we rely strictly on a water shuttle opperation. This does take a little practice and command that can correct things if need be. We have nine stations in our county department. Of those nine, we only have four tankers (tenders). On an alarm the first and second due engines and tankers will respond. If confirmed then a third tanker will respond. Depending on location, size, ect. will determine how the shuttle opperation is set up. Of coarse every situation is different. If it is a small fire or small enough in command's eyes then instead of a drop tank being used, nursing opp. will be used. In this event, usually one tanker will stage behind the primary pumper, hook to the intake, and feed that engine. All incoming units will then fill that tanker. Now the engine can focuse on fire supp. and the tanker can focuse on keeping a water supply. If the situation gets bigger or command decides to go bigger, the second engine takes the place of the tanker and the tanker joins the water shuttle. This may change at anytime. It is up to command to make those decisions, but usually this is how we opperate.

Permalink Reply by Drew Smith on May 30, 2008 at 8:00pm

We are a two station operation. Station 9 is mostly non-hydranted. The other Station, 39, is 100% hydranted. Our first engine, Engine 9, positions for maximum advantage and pulls attack line(s). Our Tanker (tender) 9 runs out of the same station as E9 and responds at the same time using the duty crew (3 on E9 and 2 on Tanker). On arrival, our SOP states that if the tanker crew sees smoke, flame or the attack enigne pulling a line they are to pull the nurse line to the attack pump and charge it unless command gives a different order. The tanker crew joins the attaxck crew and the attack pumper operator tends both pumps. The second engine, E39, postions to revese lay 5-inch line to a water source - hydrant or static supply. All our engines carry 1500 feet LDH and our 3rd and 4th due engines (both mutual aid) each carry 1000 feet X 5-inch. Our longest lay is 3500 feet and if necessary we will lay it. On a confirmed working fire we also get two 3000 gallon tankers. We rarely set up a shuttle based on road conditions (we have a 4 sq mile area without hydrants surrounded by all urban area and trying to drive in this traffic is problematic). 90+% of the time we get the fire with the tank water and some from the tanker and do not use the mutual aid units for water supply. But when we do need to we have the plan and resources. I advocate call for help early. You can always send them home!

Permalink Reply by Wayne Knott on June 11, 2008 at 1:38pm

Yup we're "HICKS IN THE STICKS" and being in the North East we still call um "TANKERS". Through time they've evolved from an "old recycled oil delivery truck" with red lights and maybe brakes; to a poly tanks with a front mount pump (750 gpm or better). The "Mind set" has to change; part of the crew is fighting fire while those left have to build a water supply system: LDH, portable pumps, tanker shuttles, dump sites, fill sites, or combinations of the above mentioned. Think about it " Tanker Shuttles TAKE LOTS OF PEOPLE, LDH takes Time to set up. One has to know what's available from the neighboring (MUTUAL AID DEPTS) towns. The time of the year and season is a key element too! Wet season VS Dry season , WINTER vs SUMMER. A sub zero tanker operation requires other key elements to keep it going. Town or State highway sanders, "Steam- Jeenies" or known in other areas as a culvert thawer unit, torches or flares to thaw out valves and connections. Why am I talking about winter on a hot june day? Well we have the 4th of july and the rest of the year "HARD SLEDDIN" Stay Safe Wayne

Permalink Reply by William Anderson on June 12, 2008 at 8:05pm

Anytime you get into a rural water operation I think its extremely important to get the help on the road early. Another key element is using the appropriate size attack line for the fire. My station houses both an engine and a tender (the engine carries 700 gallons and the tender carries 3000 gallons). If you pull a 2 1/2 inch attack line at 300 gpm you have a little over 12 minutes of water available before you run out.

Permalink Reply by Matt Weil on June 18, 2008 at 7:37am

I think the statement from Wayne hits the nail on the head, "The "Mind set" has to change; part of the crew is fighting fire while those left have to build a water supply system" I think the key component to this is knowing your area and preplaning.

Our mind set is changing too, we are starting to use turbo drafts to access water that we would have otherwise not even been considered, using 30 or 40 feet of hard suction, laying a mile of multiple 5" vs and including tanker shuttle operations, and having large occupiancies put in water sources for us to go right to draft. our new develpments and privite roads are required to provide water; wells, ponds, cisterns, or combonations of them to meet our NFF and ISO requirements ~ 30k gal static, Trucks with BIG PUMPS- 2000gpm and BIG TANKS 3000+, are also part of the solution.

build a water supply from the ground up in less than 5 minutes- that is the challange, training, preplanning and some good ol' fashion inguinity those are the answers.


Be Safe, Matt

Permalink Reply by Wayne Knott on June 19, 2008 at 3:08pm

A few folks have gone back to an "OLD CONCEPT" of using the "Squirrel Tail" .With the newer suction hose products now on the market it can be done with a few people. The TURBO Drafts and the EDUCTERS good old basic VENTURI principles,but nobody remembers the old updraft carbs (fuel injection systems now!) Ah yes the dark ages!!! Well got to get ready for the next Ice Age. stay warm and SAFE Wayne

Permalink Reply by William Anderson on June 21, 2008 at 9:24pm

New technology has made it easier on rural water operations, but there is an art to remembering the "old way" of pulling a draft. A new piece we purchased with our last two engines were low level strainers with a jet siphon built into the front of it. By trial and error we found that by using the jet siphon on the low level strainer on your suction tank, you were able to establish your draft with minimal effort. It comes down to a training issue though, you have to be able to train in all aspects of the operation, both old and new. Stay safe out there.

Permalink Reply by Colby Kinsey on July 10, 2008 at 10:00am

We dont have alarms, or boxes in our county. Some departments have automatic mutual aid on any fires, and others are strictly " If we need them we will call them" type of departments. Which I dont agree with beings everyone all 17 departments in the county are volunteer with the exception of the city. I think its a pride thing about wanting to get to the fire first then call for help. For us if we know its a working fire we call for help right out of the gate. If we get there and its blowing out all the windows, we set up a dump tank and do water shuttle. If it looks somewhat small our next in tanker or the mutual aid engine suppies us and if needed they will set up a dump tank on there engine to supply our truck. ( providing there is room at the actuall scene to have all the trucks come up). Also we send our second engine to the nearest dry hydrant to get things going for a water supply which seems wo work out pretty well. By doing this we can normally fill our tankers or mutual aid tankers in about 2-3 minutes then they drop and there gone. Its also nice if we cant get our second out engine out the door that all of our tankers in our area are at least 2-3,000 gallons. Also all but one have pumps on them so if needed they can supply themselves at a dry hydrant. And Ill say this if you guys wanna see something move water look into a vacuum tanker. I was completely impressed with those. If they would have put a pump on them we would have bought one. So anyhow thats how things normally go. I think boxes or alarms would be beneficial to all ( us included) but there are a lot of people who would rather wait to call for help then have there help beat them to there own fire.

Permalink Reply by Wayne Knott on July 18, 2008 at 4:14pm

We have a number of Towns that are working on Automatic Response( "you all come!") During the working day we're lucky if we can get a small crew together. With anumber of other towns coming that helps out greatly for a larger crew to work with. Lots of apparatus and gear and a small aggressive crew.

Permalink Reply by Bruce Green on August 1, 2008 at 12:24pm

The town in which I reside is approx.42 sq. miles in area. There are five (5) departments in the town. The department to which I belong has the largest district to cover. Approximately 1/2 of the district has no hydrants. Its sparcely populated. We used to have a tanker...which we got rid of 20+ years ago. We rely on mutual aid tankers and not just for the area without hydrants. All the departments in town now have 1-2 tankers coming automatically upon receipt of a possible structure fire. It started in the past few years in the winter- we were all finding frozen hydrants..so each Chief would set up a guide on how,when etc.. he wanted tankers rolling. Our water system is older and we kept experiencing dead hydrants and poor water supply...so we just made it a year round system..The department that runs the tankers comes from a town with 1 hydrant in it. They know hauling water..the tankers are 5,000 and 3,000 gallons.It really works well.. We still lay in from hydrants but to know you have that 8,000 gallons coming is nice..and with minimal manpower, we'll just drop a line from them and they feed us instead of hitting a hydrant with the first engine. The second engine in can catch and lay in a supply line.We all are becoming quite proficient at it. I dont see it changing anytime soon...

Permalink Reply by Wayne Knott on November 6, 2008 at 2:05pm

You mentioned the "Turbo-Draft" how do folks like it ?? Hows distance and "Lift" work out?? Vs Portable Pumps and enough folks to get things going with a few portable pumps.

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