Hydrogen Cyanide Information

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Harold on July 10, 2008 at 8:00am

The first recommendation is investing in training and equipment. It is also stated that there are no detectors presently available that can withstand daily fire department use.
How are the results today?
Most of the detection mechanismes used rely on a chemical reaction where the HCN reacts to a different accid followed by a sensory device that responds to that accidic vapour. Unfortunatly in the smoke from fires most other accidic substances will react in a simillar way. The usual detectors are therefore non-discriminating for HCN and will react also to something like HCl or H2S.
Looking forward to your resonse.
Be safe and keep thinking
Harold

Permalink Reply by Jetty Middelkoop on July 19, 2008 at 7:04pm

I read the report with great interest. In the reported cases, intoxication was the result of smoke inhalation. The report states that not much is known about the amount of risk of skin absorbtion of HCN GAS. One case of death of people wearing full PPE with BA is mentioned shortly. Their death might have been caused by skin absorbtion of HCN gas - being used for fumigation. I would like to learn more about this particular incident, but have been unable to trace it. Who can put me on the right track with this?

Permalink Reply by Rick Rochford on December 22, 2008 at 3:39pm

Harold Mugie said:

The first recommendation is investing in training and equipment. It is also stated that there are no detectors presently available that can withstand daily fire department use.
How are the results today?
Most of the detection mechanismes used rely on a chemical reaction where the HCN reacts to a different accid followed by a sensory device that responds to that accidic vapour. Unfortunatly in the smoke from fires most other accidic substances will react in a simillar way. The usual detectors are therefore non-discriminating for HCN and will react also to something like HCl or H2S.
Looking forward to your resonse.
Be safe and keep thinking
Harold

Permalink Reply by Rick Rochford on December 22, 2008 at 4:03pm

Rick Rochford said:

Harold Mugie said:

The first recommendation is investing in training and equipment. It is also stated that there are no detectors presently available that can withstand daily fire department use.
How are the results today?
Most of the detection mechanismes used rely on a chemical reaction where the HCN reacts to a different accid followed by a sensory device that responds to that accidic vapour. Unfortunatly in the smoke from fires most other accidic substances will react in a simillar way. The usual detectors are therefore non-discriminating for HCN and will react also to something like HCl or H2S.
Looking forward to your resonse.
Be safe and keep thinking
Harold

I agree that investing in training is the utmost importance. However the quality of training needs to be administerd by identifying the type of everyday combustibles that we are fighting. Our fires are very different (2-3 times hotter, flashing faster, more toxic than ever before) compared to fires that were fought 30-40 years ago, however, our tactics are still the same.We still have individuals that will not wear SCBA's during overhaul and breathing in all those toxics. What kind of relationship do you have with your Risk Management? I am sure it's like everyone elses "trying to cut costs".This needs to be addressed and discussed with our firefighters and put it in terms that they understand.
Next as far as atmospheric air monitoring is concerned I have been using Dreger PAC 7000 single cell diffused meters. It only registers up to the IDLH range and has datalogging capabilities so you can reference the calls for documentation.I have been using this meter for the past two years on an HCN study that I have been working on. Remember from the hazmat studies"if it's not documented it never happened" We need all the documentation we can get.
I hope this answers your questions.
Captain Rick Rochford
Jacksonville Fire Rescue Department
Jacksonville, Fl.

Permalink Reply by Dan Malone on January 5, 2009 at 9:56pm

Rick Rochford said:

Rick Rochford said:

Harold Mugie said:

The first recommendation is investing in training and equipment. It is also stated that there are no detectors presently available that can withstand daily fire department use.
How are the results today?
Most of the detection mechanismes used rely on a chemical reaction where the HCN reacts to a different accid followed by a sensory device that responds to that accidic vapour. Unfortunatly in the smoke from fires most other accidic substances will react in a simillar way. The usual detectors are therefore non-discriminating for HCN and will react also to something like HCl or H2S.
Looking forward to your resonse.
Be safe and keep thinking
Harold

I agree that investing in training is the utmost importance. However the quality of training needs to be administerd by identifying the type of everyday combustibles that we are fighting. Our fires are very different (2-3 times hotter, flashing faster, more toxic than ever before) compared to fires that were fought 30-40 years ago, however, our tactics are still the same.We still have individuals that will not wear SCBA's during overhaul and breathing in all those toxics. What kind of relationship do you have with your Risk Management? I am sure it's like everyone elses "trying to cut costs".This needs to be addressed and discussed with our firefighters and put it in terms that they understand.
Next as far as atmospheric air monitoring is concerned I have been using Dreger PAC 7000 single cell diffused meters. It only registers up to the IDLH range and has datalogging capabilities so you can reference the calls for documentation.I have been using this meter for the past two years on an HCN study that I have been working on. Remember from the hazmat studies"if it's not documented it never happened" We need all the documentation we can get.
I hope this answers your questions.
Captain Rick Rochford
Jacksonville Fire Rescue Department
Jacksonville, Fl.

Permalink Reply by Dan Malone on January 5, 2009 at 9:59pm

Hello Rick,
My Name is Dan Malone. I'm a fire prevention/investgation officer. I'm doing some research on HCN poisoning, specifically regarding the procurement of HCN detection equipment. Because you are familiar with the subject of HCN, I am wondering if you could offer any insights to HCN detection equipment being used in your area? If your not current in the subject would you be able to provide me with a contact who can respond to some inquiries I have.
My work email is: dan.malone@moncton.ca
Thank you in advance for your time,
Dan Malone
Moncton Fire Department

Permalink Reply by Jetty Middelkoop on January 9, 2009 at 5:10pm

Hi Rick,

My experience is, that the electrochemical cell of all HCN single cell diffused meters I know are cross sensitive for other anorganic acid vapours. As is the case with Dräger tubes for HCN. Both react for example very well on H2S, indicating the presence of "HCN".

I wonder if anyone out there has experience with the Dräger CMS chips for HCN?


Rick Rochford said:

as far as atmospheric air monitoring is concerned I have been using Dreger PAC 7000 single cell diffused meters. It only registers up to the IDLH range and has datalogging capabilities so you can reference the calls for documentation.I have been using this meter for the past two years on an HCN study that I have been working on.
Captain Rick Rochford
Jacksonville Fire Rescue Department
Jacksonville, Fl.

Permalink Reply by Rick Rochford on January 25, 2009 at 4:29pm

Hello Dan,
I have been using the Drager PAC 7000 single cell electrochemical with the specific HCN sensor. I have been using this meter for the past two years without any problem and has allowed me to track HCN exposures on all fires that I respond to. This meter also offers datalogging capabilities so I can download the specifics of the call and use it towards documentation for protection of firefighters and also my research that I too am developing.
If you want more information you can contact me via my e-mail address at e7hazrick@bellsouth.net.
I believe that this information is vital for the protection of all firefighters at all levels within the service.
Take care and stay safe
Rick Rochford
Captain Jacksonville Fire Rescue Department
Incident safety Officer
Dan Malone said:

Hello Rick,
My Name is Dan Malone. I'm a fire prevention/investgation officer. I'm doing some research on HCN poisoning, specifically regarding the procurement of HCN detection equipment. Because you are familiar with the subject of HCN, I am wondering if you could offer any insights to HCN detection equipment being used in your area? If your not current in the subject would you be able to provide me with a contact who can respond to some inquiries I have.
My work email is: dan.malone@moncton.ca
Thank you in advance for your time,
Dan Malone
Moncton Fire Department

Permalink Reply by Rick Rochford on January 25, 2009 at 4:47pm

You bring up a good point. However I do not have the answer but I do have contact with Drager and can get an answer. As far as the Drager CMS Chips are concerned I have seen these used doing WMD training exercises and would like to try them out.
My research with the electrochemical sensor technology has been very successful on structure fires and training fires that I respond to on a regular basis. It hits the IDLH on all entry operations and clears itself out upon exiting to fresh air. My interest in this has also allowed me to use a 200 ppm colormetic tube during the same fires and with concentrations of heavy smoke conditions will max out.All of these readings is being used for documentation of my firefighters for future health related issues.
These are all good tools to use to protect ourselves and others. I firmly believe that all fires needs to be treated just like an unidentified hazmat response and using atmospheric air monitoring metering should and must be used.
Let's all get together and talk about this further

Jetty Middelkoop said:

Hi Rick,

My experience is, that the electrochemical cell of all HCN single cell diffused meters I know are cross sensitive for other anorganic acid vapours. As is the case with Dräger tubes for HCN. Both react for example very well on H2S, indicating the presence of "HCN".

I wonder if anyone out there has experience with the Dräger CMS chips for HCN?


Rick Rochford said:

as far as atmospheric air monitoring is concerned I have been using Dreger PAC 7000 single cell diffused meters. It only registers up to the IDLH range and has datalogging capabilities so you can reference the calls for documentation.I have been using this meter for the past two years on an HCN study that I have been working on.
Captain Rick Rochford
Jacksonville Fire Rescue Department
Jacksonville, Fl.

Permalink Reply by P.J. Norwood on June 7, 2011 at 7:30pm

Good evening everyone, I have recently been handed a new HCN meter and now I need to famliarize myself, train my members and get it into service. Does anyone have a a PPT that i can utilize and customize if needed to fit the needs of my departm,ent? I would appreciate any help that anyone can offer.

 

Sincerely,

P.J. Norwood

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Jetty Middelkoop on June 8, 2011 at 2:17am

As the presentation depends of the type of meter you have, please add info on brand and type (e.g. BW technologies, GasAlertExtreme)

Jetty

P.J. Norwood said:

Good evening everyone, I have recently been handed a new HCN meter and now I need to famliarize myself, train my members and get it into service. Does anyone have a a PPT that i can utilize and customize if needed to fit the needs of my departm,ent? I would appreciate any help that anyone can offer.

 

Sincerely,

P.J. Norwood

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by P.J. Norwood on June 8, 2011 at 8:21am

Jetty, thank you for the reply, I appreciate your willingness to assist me. They purchased the ToxiRae II single gas HCN and a single gas CO and a new 4 gas QRAEII. Any assistance you can offer I truly appreciate it.

 

Sincerely,

 

P.J. Norwood

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