Rescue vs Ventilation

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rick Fritz on January 4, 2009 at 10:30am

Rescue and search because the BC's don't believe in anything but PPV!

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on January 4, 2009 at 10:59am

I'm gonna take a chance on this. First, I'll put the usual "how much fire and smoke?" statement out there. What does that show for the rescue profile? Is the next due engine on our tail or 5 minutes out? In my dept we don't have the designated truck company so we fill the roles as they come.

With that said, it sounds as if the roof will need to be opened at some point, but if the engine and truck companies are well lead, I think an attack/rescue mode may work. RECEO. The truck for search and rescue and the attack to confine the fire and protect the stairs/crew and inside exposures. The fire is already venting from side C, depending on the smoke conditions from the other windows a VES action may be warranted or go right with the engine crew and split off at the top of the stairs. The time of arrival of the next engine co. would play a part in that they could throw (additional) ladders and assist with water supply and RIT (although that would be up for discussion too with a possible rescue under way)

We do use PPV and it can and does improve conditions, especially with limited resources upon arrival. One man for the fan vs. 2 or 3 to the roof. I'm not sure which is more effective but I only have experience with the PPV method. I'm here to learn as much as possible so give me your thoughts.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Clayton on January 4, 2009 at 12:09pm

Rick Fritz said:

Rescue and search because the BC's don't believe in anything but PPV!

This basically sums it up for me as well! We use PPV to ventilate, I'd guess, over 90% of the time.
I'm not trying to start a PPV debate...but, we (as a department) would go for the rescue, probably from the interior.

Personally, I'd probably go for the rescue first as well, assigning ventilation to the next arriving apparatus. I'd have to look at our options, possibly VES may be the way to conduct the operation. However, I wouldn't rule out an oriented search depending on conditions.

Permalink Reply by Chad Snyder on January 4, 2009 at 3:56pm

I always enjoy trying to type a scenario that is easy for everyone to have the same fire in their head. So to simplify things I was going through some training pages on the web and this one made me think... I would have agreed with you guys 100%, but Kevin Trost from Sacramento wrote an interesting article. So check out the link below, then look back at the scenario. I dont think there is a right or wrong answer here just curious to see others thoughts.

Thanks

http://www.sacfire.org/UserFiles/File/Fire%20Training%20Magazine/Re...

Permalink Reply by Rob Fisher on January 4, 2009 at 5:14pm

Chad,

Always a great topic for debate. I'm going to keep the fire simple in my mind so not to over complicate things.

To make it short and sweet, I'm venting if only performing a single task. However, if you are going to allow me to perform more than one, then it would be ventilation and VES.

If there is one thing that effects both the victim(s) and firefighter safety it's ventilation. Not PPV either! Especially if I am performing VES. Another discussion for another time.

Assuming the engine company is stretching the first line to the correct location, my ladder company will be supporting them with ventilation. The first line should be stretched to protect the victims(s) and/or their egress. We will be venting the building as close as possible to the victim(s) and the engine's hose stretch to give them some relief.

To add...our ladder company has tool / job assignments. We don't have one for this specific scenario; however, I could modify our ventilation assignment to complete both VES and ventilation. Assuming the typical type of construction in our area (wood frame with pitched roof), my driver and firefighter would handle vertical ventilation. As the officer, I can then throw a 24' ladder to begin VES. I'll have a TIC with me to help locate a victim in the room I'm entering.

Lastly, after proper ventilation, the engine company will be able to advance quickly on the fire. There's nothing wrong with them getting to the room, protecting the egress, and removing the victim.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on January 6, 2009 at 2:44pm

-As Tom Brennen was fond of saying, "Its all about the basics." For the purposes of the question, I will assume a High Rescue Profile is what we are talking about; a know victim in need of rescue.
-One of our basic acronyms we drill into new firefighters is LIP. Life safety, Incident stabilization, Property conservation. Life safety first and foremost.
-Based on specific conditions, ventilation is one of the most definitive life saving acts we can perform on the fireground. Again, this is a Brennen-ism.
-When there is not enough personnel available to perform both rescue and suppression simultaneously, rescue must be given priority. Rescue those in the greatest danger first (John Norman) This assumes a High Rescue Profile.
-In lower rescue profiles basic firefighting strategies and tactics must be adhered to.
-It really is all about the basics.
-Stay safe.

Permalink Reply by Ron Weston on January 7, 2009 at 11:22am

Hey,

First up, no subsequent arriving apparatus should be making an IAP. First in should have established IC. and a strategy. Then the IAP. Having said that and efforts should be on rescue. Information is good that we have a trapped victim on the second floor. All resources should be used for the rescue. PPV is a must to clear heat and smoke which will aid in search efforts, also it will reintroduce fresh air which is vital for victim survival. Vertical ventilation is too time consuming at this point. The fire is already blowing out a window, and smoke is exiting as well, "everything looks ideal for ppv". Two preconnect lines should be used, one to defend the exit for the crews on the second floor. The second to advance on the second floor . The attack line should not engage with the fire fight unless necessary to assist with second floor search. Man power on the second floor will co-ordinate the search until the person is found. Once rescue is accomplished the IC will retool the IAP and then go after the fire.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on January 7, 2009 at 3:01pm

-Ron,
I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly. Are you suggesting that the searching firefighters have a hose line with them to search the second floor?
-Also, I don't think Chad was suggesting that the second arriving company, the Ladder, was then creating or altering the IAP. Maybe I read into the question but it seemed that it was understood that the Ladder was going to be directed to either perform a search or initiate ventilation based on the IAP and what the Truck officer felt was most pressing and possible with his limited manpower of three personnel.
-Given three members on the Truck, vertical ventilation and a primary search are not simultaneously possible.
-What is possible is one or the other or extremely limited/brief horizontal ventilation and an immediate commitment to the search.
-Based on the high probability of a trapped victim in this scenario, a High Rescue Profile, the ladder must initiate a search.
-Stay safe.

Ron Weston said:

Hey,
First up, no subsequent arriving apparatus should be making an IAP. First in should have established IC. and a strategy. Then the IAP. Having said that and efforts should be on rescue. Information is good that we have a trapped victim on the second floor. All resources should be used for the rescue. PPV is a must to clear heat and smoke which will aid in search efforts, also it will reintroduce fresh air which is vital for victim survival. Vertical ventilation is too time consuming at this point. The fire is already blowing out a window, and smoke is exiting as well, "everything looks ideal for ppv". Two preconnect lines should be used, one to defend the exit for the crews on the second floor. The second to advance on the second floor . The attack line should not engage with the fire fight unless necessary to assist with second floor search. Man power on the second floor will co-ordinate the search until the person is found. Once rescue is accomplished the IC will retool the IAP and then go after the fire.

Permalink Reply by Ben Simonds on January 12, 2009 at 1:30am

Chad here is my thought,
Is the room that we believe the occupant is in tenable? if it is VES. If not then we need to support the advancement of the initial line and go with Ventilation.

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on January 12, 2009 at 7:41am

So the building has vented already from a window so its venting a little bit. The 1st in Engine crew is inside and I can only assume that when they come to the fire room they would search as well as hit the fire. So Id have the stick to the roof a ladder for the Interior crew if needed to exit in a hurry and Id vent the roof. Let the 2nd or 3rd Engine crew do the primary. And yes if VES is possible then that would be an option.

Ive always been taught there was 2 types of searchs a Visible search where you were told a person was still inside and you had a rough idea of the loaction. The second is called a blind sweep. This is the every day primary searching with no clue if a person is still inside.
And my decision for Vetning before search is becuse if the egnine crew can get the fire and with our aid in venting quicker then a the chances are greater for survival for any persons in the IDLH.

Permalink Reply by Dave Gallagher on January 12, 2009 at 9:26am

VES over portable ladder from the most practical available remaining side closest to the burning room.
Reasons:
1 - Life of the occupant - if the room burning is not accessible due to involvment, you have the others to search. If it is accessible you can make a quick check.
2 - Look at the windows; check the glass for smoke staining; if not there, then that bedroom door is probably closed to the hallway. Nice room to start off with; you will be able to hit all of the other bedrooms from there
3 - The interior stairs will be taken up with the advancing engine. You don't really need to search for the fire at this point and the Eng will be taking/protecting the interior stairs - their job 1.
4 - OK, the fire room is burning. It's venting. What's the problem? And, sure, it's probably starting in the overhead attic space, but, that is a calculated risk based upon conditions YOU see and your pucker factor. All the better to perhaps have hit the "A" side window to the room farthest from the fire. Gives you an escape route and a place to package your victim. You don't have the personnel to do a vertical vent at this point. Get the person. Your job 1.
5 - You don't dance with it. Go get them, and get out. Remember, though, moving that unconcious civilian (if the were concious they probably would have been outta there) is not the easiest thing to do. Have your plan and fortitude ready.

Permalink Reply by Chad Snyder on January 13, 2009 at 11:59pm

Thanks for the discussion guys some great points.

There has been a few that would go for PPV. One of the points that was drilled into me of when NOT to use PPV was unknown location of victims. Obviously its difficult for all of us to see the same fire, but when would you turn the fan into the door?
Ron, You said that "the attack line should not engage with the fire fight unless necessary to assist with second floor search. Man power on the second floor will co-ordinate the search until the person is found." Assuming the search starts as close to the fire as possible why would you not have the engine company attack the fire and the truck search?

Thanks for the info
Chad

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