What difficulties face motorsports fire/rescue that aren't taught at the academy?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jeffrey S Austin on June 5, 2009 at 1:22pm

In my opinion, we don't adhere to NFPA 610 so the owners of the race tracks don't either. I've been to some "mom & pop" race tracks that the crash crews have a "run what ya brung" attitude. We pushed for NFPA 1403 because we were killing ourselves during live burn training. We must push that all fire and crash crews adbide by NFPA 610 Guide for Emergency and Safety Operations at Motorsports Venues. Did you know that most of the crash crews don't even know of the existence of NFPA 610? Did you also know that many aren't even trained & certified firefighters to the NFPA 1001 standard?

http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/features/industry-insiders/if...

Permalink Reply by Dave Dalrymple on June 9, 2009 at 5:05am

I have to agree with alot of what Jeff mentions. Traveling safety teams such as for IRL are pretty well equipped, outfitted in proper PPE for the environment and are well trained. And on the opposite end of the scale you see the "run what you brought" but many times you would be suprised besides the little "mom & pop" tracks even some of the large venues it is much of the same. Even 610 is pretty vague considering it is supposed to encompass ALL forms of motorsports.
Look at the training section in 610 as well as the PPE suggested. Pretty wide open for interpretation. How many venues use structural gear as PPE? Hmmm...
Plus venues and sanctioning bodies seem reluctant to spend money on a "non-venue" producing areas such as emergency services. What do you think jeff and Gus?
Dave Dalrymple

Jeffrey Stuart Austin said:

In my opinion, we don't adhere to NFPA 610 so the owners of the race tracks don't either. I've been to some "mom & pop" race tracks that the crash crews have a "run what ya brung" attitude. We pushed for NFPA 1403 because we were killing ourselves during live burn training. We must push that all fire and crash crews adbide by NFPA 610 Guide for Emergency and Safety Operations at Motorsports Venues. Did you know that most of the crash crews don't even know of the existence of NFPA 610? Did you also know that many aren't even trained & certified firefighters to the NFPA 1001 standard?

http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/features/industry-insiders/if...

Permalink Reply by Keith "Gus" Grant on June 9, 2009 at 8:26am

Pretty common thoughts here gents. Part of the problem with many but not all motorsports safety teams is the fact that many do gooders volunteer for this job because they have done so for many years at the tracks and are respected for their positions and support of the local racers. They also feel as though their experience should be enough to get them out of any situation because they have seen it all. Sound about right?

Most of the traveling teams have secure sponsorships for safety team expenses, training, etc. Many high end safety teams employ trained firefighters, medics and doctors that travel exclusively with these series for logistical and liability reasons. The pay is not always great, but there are prestige issues involved with the long hours and involvement with big money race teams. But, there is little trickle down effect from the advanced safety teams to the smaller series and sportsman ranks who can wreck just as hard if not worse than the pros. That's where the majority of injuries and deaths are occuring on a weekly basis, not at the top national levels. Many of us are trying to change that.

The tracks owners and promoters either ignore facts or pretend that they been lucky with severe accidents and not lost too many drivers, so they are riding the 'Vegas wave. Add to that that many track safety members volunteer their time, equipment and time to be where the action is and will work for free admission to watch the race, gas money, get an official patch for their uniform, beer or burger at best. It happens all over the country. These are not bad or stupid people and in some instances, if they were not there, there would be no "safety team". The track owners get off easy and cheaply when this happens and they take their chances that these do gooders know what they are doing because they are essentially "free" and the insurance company and racers feel safe because there are warm bodies in safety gear (maybe).

Racers will be racers and the show must go on but the lucky streak can only take you so far, then reality sets in when fans or drivers get injured or killed. That's when fingers start to point at who was responsible for the accident, whether the track was unsafe for competition, the driver did not have all his safety equipment on, the track crew is unprepared, etc. etc. etc. That's where the blame game starts and nothing gets resolved and the situation just keeps repeating itself. That needs to change.

Only when the insurance companies or other regulatory agencies make NFPA 610 or equivalent standards a mandate will this condition improve to an acceptable level. The flip side is that the costs will increase dramatically if the mom and pops are forced to retain a professional or trained and dedicated staff and equipment and will simply close the doors especially with increased regulations, costs and loss of revenue. That is a reality no racer wants to see happen especially in this economy. NFPA and SFI have done a good job at providing industry recommendations to this sport for many areas but until there is a force to reckon with for acceptable and appropriate compliance, change will be slow to come for many of these venues unless they become proactive and everyone works together to make the sport even safer for fans and participants alike.

So the real balance here is for racers, responders, track owners, promoters and insurance companies to push towards a 610 or equivalent driven program for their tracks; institute a total safety program at each type of event or facility based on motorsports industry findings and proven recommendations; provide enforcement for this program with all racers through a proper technical inspection program and provide equipment, training and incentive options to emergency responders allowing them to operate more informed and prepared about motorsports emergencies and not just to wing it when the brown stuff hits the fan. That gives the rest of us a bad name who do care and do the right thing.

We'll never get rid of all the challenges and dangers of motorsports which is part of the allure to racing, but we need to get rid of the stupid stuff that we can fix, reduce or prevent. What can you do to make a change at your local track or event to address this problem?

Permalink Reply by Jeffrey S Austin on June 9, 2009 at 12:42pm

We have a couple of dirt tracks in SE Virginia that meet that standard of what I had previously mentioned as "rung what ya brung" and "mom and pop" ops. The problem is if you read, closely, the fine print in the race contract. Many say if you get hurt or worse killed too bad for you but don't try to sue us. You have lost that right by signing the contract.

I thought that the most professional crash crews were in F1. Then I saw a couple of races, on TV, where they just seemed overwhelmed by a simple shunt into a wall. Daytona and the other Superspeedways have, in my opinion, the best trained crash crews around. They look professional because they are professional. I understand the budget limitations of these smaller tracks but if they can't afford the proper trained staff then they need to shut down the track, period.

The same holds true for a large, mostly volunteer, organization that I'm connected with. I asked about the requirements for the crash crews to be trained to NFPA 610 and was told that was the responsibility of the track owners. I asked about PPE requirements and was told that anything from wildland PPE to race suits was OK. I asked about SCBA and was told that wasn't necessary. I've seen many fires in the pits and I would rather not breath the products of combustion from a methanol fire, I have a family to go home to. I see the "safety" crews wearing T-shirts and shorts.

I hope that we don't have another 1955 Le Mans, where Pierre Levegh launched his Mercedes into the stands killing 84 and injuring some 100 others, to wake up the race fans, promoters and general public. When that happens, Congress will start public hearings and then they will start legislating safety. God help us all when that happens.

What price do we have to place on human life to provide the safest environment for everyone during the event? What about the lives of the crash crews? Wildland PPE doesn't cut it in a flash methanol fire in the pits. A lack of proper head protection is a prescription for serious injuries. Who pays for those injuries "on the job"?

I believe it starts with the sanctioning bodies. Show them the legal implications for not forcing properly trained and equipped crash crews for the events that they sponsor. Let them know that if they don't force the issue, Congress will at some point.

Firefighting is a job of risk management. Always has been and will continue to be so. Most of us remember the accident that took the life of Dale Earnhardt Sr. It wasn't until after that tragedy that the HANS device became common and then mandated by the various sanctioning bodies.

We have the problem of getting these mom and pop race tracks to understand that they risk losing everything, including their personal property if they don't change their outlook on the tracks crash crews, through legal action.

We all seem to be on the same sheet of music. We now must start doing something about it.

Permalink Reply by Keith "Gus" Grant on June 9, 2009 at 1:17pm

Racing has been and will always be an entertainment type of sport, aka "for profit" private business. If the owners don't make a profit, the business ceases to exist. Period. It's Business 101 with a few racing lunatics thown in making the money for the track or series owners. People pay to be entertained whether or not they participate, spectate or advertise their wares. Racers wil always exist and need an organized and "safe" place to do their thing.

The mentality is that if a few "troublemakers" think the track or that racing is unsafe, race somewhere else. No one is forcing you to race at any facility. Racers will race barefoot on a razor blade if that was the only thing available to get our fix. The problems come into play when these "entertainment venues" become places of mass assembly and hazards that local officials are them asked to fix or required to provide services for when the entertainment now becomes a danger to Joe Q. Public. That is where this discussion has led to and why others had to step in when the industry could not or would not police itself. If you add the gov't for true regulation, racing would cease to exist as we know it. This is not a place for total gov't regulation but safety oversight is not a bad idea to protect the public who enjoy the entertainment.

That is where we are today and it all boils down to the bottom dollar. I have had many discussions with insurance companies over this topic and it seems to be a very simple theme; insurance companies make money on high risk events like auto racing. That's their "for profit" business and when they can reduce their outlay of benefits vs the reduction or loss of premiums and still make the same profit margin, only then will this argument change. If they force a track owner to implement all these new safety rules and increased costs, will they reduce their premium automatically? Nope and it's because they may not be able to see an immediate reduction in their payout of benefits even with the new safety teams in place. That's why I said before it has to be a combined effort among everyone to address it. Until that happens, this discussion and its problems will not go away any time soon.

Permalink Reply by Jeffrey S Austin on June 12, 2009 at 12:50pm

I've had a chance to speak with a few of the large insurance and re-insurance firms that have offices in the US. I found it amazing that only one of them knew of the existence of NFPA 610. It may have been just the individual that I was talking to but it's a scary proposition that these people, the folks in the underwriting department of each firm didn't know. A stark reply from one very well known company was " . . . what we don't know could very well kill us . . . " and " . . . while this isn't on the same level as out mortgage crisis, it could be for the underwriting folks . . . "

I hope that we can at the very least, start a change before something like another crash in Le Mans happens and the legal beagles jump all over it.

Speaking of Le Mans, don't forget that the world's greatest endurance road race starts this Saturday at 0900 EST. I'll be in training but will be there from when I get home until it finishes on Sunday. It's an annual tradition with me.

Permalink Reply by Christian Kehl on January 19, 2010 at 12:19pm

The rescue team that I am over has worked many tracks and covered several different divisions (sprints, modifieds etc) and the biggest problem we have encountered is promoters/track owners that just don't ubderstand the liabilities associated with not having a well trained and equipped rescue team at the track. They like many others see a firetruck and they think they are protected, but there have been several instances where the local VFD was at the track and deaths have occurred because they were ill prepared for motorsports emergencies.
Also I have had promoters tell me that there is such a thing as "too safe" and that "sometimes you gotta lose one." Hows that for forward thinking?
The biggest thing is that the insurance companies need to require NFPA 610 Compliance before insuring an event, and the fire service needs to step up and realize that they need to be better trained.....a racing incident is nothing like a highway response.

Permalink Reply by Chris Lovegrove on March 28, 2010 at 10:47am

Hi
I run a safety team at our local track 3/8 mile paved banked oval. I was amazed when we had a visit from our insurance rep that they did not require the owners of the track to have any sort of safety team/fire or EMS. Nothing!!! I think that requiring at least something would be one step to start the ball rolling in the right direction. They do not have to mandate what the track has to have just that they have to have something. I am lucky that I have a very safety consious owner and even though he is tetering on the edge of having to close the track down he has not once mentioned cutting the safety team witch consists of three paid firefighters/emt/paramedic every sat night all year long.
As for having Fire dept or EMS standing by at the track that would be nice but in this county at least would cost him more as they will not use county equipment for private race tracks with out charging.

Permalink Reply by George H. Potter on January 15, 2012 at 1:34pm

I just looked into this Discussion, and so I'll offer my two cents worth. I was very much involved in F1 and endurance racing for more than decade here in Europe - 1969 through 1982, including three LeMans (for Jeff Austin, the LeMans week is incredible), and now again back into F1. Fire safety and EMS at most European circuits is two-tiered. Race organizers are "obliged" by the International Autosport Federation, FIA, and the F1 management corporation to provide professional fire protection and EMS for the circuits, and as such, the race organizers bring local fire and rescue services into their operating structure during pre-race qualifications days and on race day.

As many of you probably know, F1 races are held on three types of circuits; (1) urban streets adapted for the event with dismountable crash barriers, limited run-offs, "pre-fab" pit sheds, dismountable grand stands, and so on, (2) purpose designed and constructed racing circuits with good to excellent structural elements including grand stands, pit facilities, water supply, etc., or in a few cases, (3) mixed facilities where urban or public roads are integrated with purpose built installations. LeMans is an example of this 3rd example. At urban circuits, the local municipal fire service may have a fully staffed fire station close to or even within the circuit complex (Valencia, Spain is an example). The purpose built circuits may be close to or relatively far from professional fire services. Nonetheless, these public service emergency responders are well involved from the outset.

However, there may be from 15 to 50 properly trained and equipped FFs located at strategic points around the circuit; pit lane and pits, predetermined curves and other locations considered to be possible hazardous locations. Several ambulances staffed by well prepared medical attendants are also spotted around the circuits, and now every F1 track has a heliport with at least one air-evac helicopter standing by. The "weak" point is composed of the dozens of track marshalls whose principal occupation is to wave or hold out one or another of the varied colored flags indicating a number of instructions to the drivers - allow the following car to pass, reduce speed for the Safety Car, etc., and approach a crash scene with portable fire extinguishers for first aid application.

The Safety Car is a vital part of the whole show. For many years the Safety Car was deployed mainly to lead the racing cars at reduced speed while operators cleared debris from the track after a collision or other mishap. In recent years, the extremely powerful Safey Car is manned by a firefighter and a doctor, both of whom are part of the permanent F1 staff.

As far as I know, there are no requirements here in Europe equivilent to NFPA 610.

I did a study on fire and medical protection at several European F1 circuits and LeMans back in the mid 1970s. Things have changed quite a bit. In those days it was frequent to find airport crash vehicles and FFs providing fire protection at F1 circuits, although at LeMans, FFs and equipment from the local regional fire service covered the circuit. I hope to submit a comparative study on two distinct F1 circuits this year to FIRE ENGINEERING.

Keep safe everybody.

Permalink Reply by George H. Potter on January 15, 2012 at 1:41pm

George H. Potter said:

I just looked into this Discussion, and so I'll offer my two cents worth. I was very much involved in F1 and endurance racing for more than decade here in Europe - 1969 through 1982, including three LeMans (for Jeff Austin, the LeMans week is incredible), and now again back into F1. Fire safety and EMS at most European circuits is two-tiered. Race organizers are "obliged" by the International Autosport Federation, FIA, and the F1 management corporation to provide professional fire protection and EMS for the circuits, and as such, the race organizers bring local fire and rescue services into their operating structure during pre-race qualifications days and on race day.

As many of you probably know, F1 races are held on three types of circuits; (1) urban streets adapted for the event with dismountable crash barriers, limited run-offs, "pre-fab" pit sheds, dismountable grand stands, and so on, (2) purpose designed and constructed racing circuits with good to excellent structural elements including grand stands, pit facilities, water supply, etc., or in a few cases, (3) mixed facilities where urban or public roads are integrated with purpose built installations. LeMans is an example of this 3rd example. At urban circuits, the local municipal fire service may have a fully staffed fire station close to or even within the circuit complex (Valencia, Spain is an example). The purpose built circuits may be close to or relatively far from professional fire services. Nonetheless, these public service emergency responders are well involved from the outset.

However, there may be from 15 to 50 properly trained and equipped FFs located at strategic points around the circuit; pit lane and pits, predetermined curves and other locations considered to be possible hazardous locations. Several ambulances staffed by well prepared medical attendants are also spotted around the circuits, and now every F1 track has a heliport with at least one air-evac helicopter standing by. The "weak" point is composed of the dozens of track marshalls whose principal occupation is to wave or hold out one or another of the varied colored flags indicating a number of instructions to the drivers - allow the following car to pass, reduce speed for the Safety Car, etc., and approach a crash scene with portable fire extinguishers for first aid application.

The Safety Car is a vital part of the whole show. For many years the Safety Car was deployed mainly to lead the racing cars at reduced speed while operators cleared debris from the track after a collision or other mishap. In recent years, the extremely powerful Safey Car is manned by a firefighter and a doctor, both of whom are part of the permanent F1 staff.

As far as I know, there are no requirements here in Europe equivilent to NFPA 610.

I did a study on fire and medical protection at several European F1 circuits and LeMans back in the mid 1970s. Things have changed quite a bit. In those days it was frequent to find airport crash vehicles and FFs providing fire protection at F1 circuits, although at LeMans, FFs and equipment from the local regional fire service covered the circuit. I hope to submit a comparative study on two distinct F1 circuits this year to FIRE ENGINEERING.

Keep safe everybody.