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2-story wood frame, residential with flat roof
attached on B side – similar
exp D wood frame 3 story seperated by 5’ alley
exp C -- too shed 15' behind structure
on arrival, fire extending out rear 2nd flr approx 20’
heavy smoke 2nd floor
no wind
72 degrees
2200 hrs

Where do your lines go? what size are they?
how do you decentralize the fire?
how do you vent this structure?

you are the engine captain stretching to the 2nd floor and you come across a dinner-plate sized h*** in the floor by the stairs. What do you do?

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Replies to This Discussion

My departments response would be an engine with 3, Alpha unit with 2 and an engine with 5 from the other station. After a 360, if the fire was determined to be on the 2nd floor, the line would go up the stairs to the fire room. I would have the incoming engine lay a supply, stretch a second line to the 2nd floor and primary the floor (if practicle). Other personnel from 2nd engine would throw ladders to 2nd floor windows and probably search 1st floor. We use PPV so I would concider setting that up at front door and starting it once the attack is under way and conditions are assessed on the second floor.
I would be stretching 1 3/4" and concidering a 2nd alarm (for us that's 3 engines and a truck) depending on extention and location of fire.
With the flat roof, I'm thinking horizontal vent where the fire is already venting from. With the minimum manpower, that's about the extent until proven otherwise and 2nd alarm companies show up if requested.
Upon finding a h*** in the floor, I'd notify command of the situation and attempt to remove a door nearby and lay it over the h***. Command would be notified if this was successful or not.
I realize from reading all the posts on the community pages that in reality I wouldn't have enough manpower to "properly" address all the needs as readily as they appear in my response, but I attempted to address the initial work.
The more feed back to me the better. I'm not an officer yet but I'm wanting to prepare as best as I can. Thanks
KTF
Todd
Re; Vent -- is there a ladder on this 1st alarm response? Soemone has to get to the roof and open it up as that will delay fire spread via the cockloft to the exposure -- this is a priority here.
Re: line placement -- inside the structure is correct but iIn addition, protective lines inside the attached exposure and lines in the alley to keep the exposed wall of exp D wet. Alot of protection issues, need alotta people.
I would be careful with PPV here as it will likley push the fire all around the top floor and into the cokcloft and probably the attatched exposure
also decentralizing means putting someone in charge of the critical areas How would u handle that?

Nice work
b safe
aa

Todd Trudeau said:
My departments response would be an engine with 3, Alpha unit with 2 and an engine with 5 from the other station. After a 360, if the fire was determined to be on the 2nd floor, the line would go up the stairs to the fire room. I would have the incoming engine lay a supply, stretch a second line to the 2nd floor and primary the floor (if practicle). Other personnel from 2nd engine would throw ladders to 2nd floor windows and probably search 1st floor. We use PPV so I would concider setting that up at front door and starting it once the attack is under way and conditions are assessed on the second floor.
I would be stretching 1 3/4" and concidering a 2nd alarm (for us that's 3 engines and a truck) depending on extention and location of fire.
With the flat roof, I'm thinking horizontal vent where the fire is already venting from. With the minimum manpower, that's about the extent until proven otherwise and 2nd alarm companies show up if requested.
Upon finding a h*** in the floor, I'd notify command of the situation and attempt to remove a door nearby and lay it over the h***. Command would be notified if this was successful or not.
I realize from reading all the posts on the community pages that in reality I wouldn't have enough manpower to "properly" address all the needs as readily as they appear in my response, but I attempted to address the initial work.
The more feed back to me the better. I'm not an officer yet but I'm wanting to prepare as best as I can. Thanks
KTF
Todd
No ladder on first alarm.....left at the station. I know..WTF. Anyhow Chief, I agree with the verticle vent job, we just don't do it or have the manpower on 1st alarm. I did concider that the fire was extending out the 2nd story already and that would give the crap someplace to go initially. Opening the roof and ceiling would be after knockdown.

As far as stretching to the exposures, that would be later in the game. Not text book but regardless of my chief saying do more with less, It just can't happen. Again with our minimum manpower, the fire floor is where I'd be focused to start with search and knockdown (depending on conditions and where I think things are going)
Chief, my dept get 5 companies on a first alarm(4 engines and a quint) We also have both bosses that live in town. With all that said, On arrival, second alarm would be transmitted, with the first two engines being ours, first company stretch 1.75 to the second floor of the fire building. Second due, catch a plug, secure water supply, then strech a second line to the B exposure. 1st Chief would be IC front of structure, 2nd boss to the rear(C side) 3rd due quint has the roof, open it up right away.Next engine bring 2nd line to the fire floor to back up my crew, 4th engine stretch to the exposure B structure, to assist the crew there. The need is to get that roof opened up, and keep this fire from spreading. Second alarm companies would be put to use where the IC sees fit.In my part of the world we get auto aid chiefs with their companies,so decentralizing this fire would be handled by the IC and additional chiefs.

The dinner plate sized h*** causes me to rethink the initial fire buildings integrity, to keep this short, proceed carefully, be ready to evacuate the fire building and save the attached building. Every fire has a cause, every structure must be searched, but not at the expense of my crew or myself, if found to be vacant.

Stay Safe
Jeff
First line 1-3/4'' to the fire. Have the second due eng secure water supply, investigate the h*** in the floor below and stretch the second 1-3/4'' to protect the interior stairway, means of egress. Have the truck ladder the side A window for rescue if needed and secondary means of egress,also ladder side D for secondary escape off the roof also have the truck set their arial ladder up for vertical ventilation. Dispatch a second alarm to assist with search and rescue and the RIT.
good fire bldg tactics. Don't forget the exposures or u will have several bldgs going. NJ civil service would want u to light area due to time of day as well. In addition to laddering, seach ops must take place on the 2nd floor asap. be safe bro
aa
Charles Allen Jr. said:
First line 1-3/4'' to the fire. Have the second due eng secure water supply, investigate the h*** in the floor below and stretch the second 1-3/4'' to protect the interior stairway, means of egress. Have the truck ladder the side A window for rescue if needed and secondary means of egress,also ladder side D for secondary escape off the roof also have the truck set their arial ladder up for vertical ventilation. Dispatch a second alarm to assist with search and rescue and the RIT.
Couldn't help reading the thread before answering but I think all of the responses were in line with what I was thinking. Good idea with the lighting...we have a squad that is used primarily for support that is an excellent resource to be used at a fire like this. Wouldn't have thought of that on the fire!

Chief, I am assuming by your response that PPV would be wrong? Because I was thinking the same thing only because I think that I would increase visibility tremendously especially for the initial attack. In the SFH that we have responded to where we perform PPV initially as opposed to the ones that we delay due to fear of spreading the fire we have noticed that it runs a lot smoother and faster due to increased visibility. What are your thoughts?

One of the things that I did not see that would be of primary concern would be rescue operations due to the time of day. I would try to make certain that everyone was evacuated from the structure and if not, I would immediately begin rescue operations and set up my RIT team and have them check for secondary means of egress. Also, I would consider protecting that shed in the back since the fire is coming from the back of the structure and shed's normally have a lot of combustible materials in them.
search and evac are a primary concern and tactic. I didn't put a question for it. Still must be conducted. As far as the PPV, not a big fan (no pun intended). We in the northeast have tyoo many buildings with too many voids and unseen compromise. The last thing we want to do is push fire around. That could involve exposures. Always try to keep it to 1 building. Burning up your exposures , as Chief Byrunacini says, is tacky

Noel Marti said:
Couldn't help reading the thread before answering but I think all of the responses were in line with what I was thinking. Good idea with the lighting...we have a squad that is used primarily for support that is an excellent resource to be used at a fire like this. Wouldn't have thought of that on the fire!

Chief, I am assuming by your response that PPV would be wrong? Because I was thinking the same thing only because I think that I would increase visibility tremendously especially for the initial attack. In the SFH that we have responded to where we perform PPV initially as opposed to the ones that we delay due to fear of spreading the fire we have noticed that it runs a lot smoother and faster due to increased visibility. What are your thoughts?

One of the things that I did not see that would be of primary concern would be rescue operations due to the time of day. I would try to make certain that everyone was evacuated from the structure and if not, I would immediately begin rescue operations and set up my RIT team and have them check for secondary means of egress. Also, I would consider protecting that shed in the back since the fire is coming from the back of the structure and shed's normally have a lot of combustible materials in them.
Response would be Command 1, 2 engines 1 ladder and 2 rescues. I am the Captain that is being order to stretch a line to the second floor I would take a 1 3/4 preconnect into side A of the building. Second engine picks up the closest hydrant and supplies first engine company. Have second engine company perform a search on the floor below the fire, Ladder needs to position themselves so they can access two sides of the building, get to the roof and prepare for trench cut vent side B and C area. First arriving rescue pulls a 1 3/4 hose and enters to back up attack crew, Second rescue can pull 2 1/2 and monitor D side exposure. All resources are working Command needs to evaluate and consider an all hands providing the scene with a 3rd engine and rescue, moves mutual aid companies into the City to cover addition call. As far as the h*** I found by the stairs I would advise command to issue warning to all companies entering and maybe have a member of the 3rd rescue stand-by and control foot traffic in the area. Fire attack crew of second floor will perform a primary search of the second floor there is higher probability of fire victims due to the time of day. Once the fire has been brought under control I would request PPV from the A side front door. Then over haul.
god stuff, but i would get a line to the top floor of the attached exposure asap

Scott S Bolduc said:
Response would be Command 1, 2 engines 1 ladder and 2 rescues. I am the Captain that is being order to stretch a line to the second floor I would take a 1 3/4 preconnect into side A of the building. Second engine picks up the closest hydrant and supplies first engine company. Have second engine company perform a search on the floor below the fire, Ladder needs to position themselves so they can access two sides of the building, get to the roof and prepare for trench cut vent side B and C area. First arriving rescue pulls a 1 3/4 hose and enters to back up attack crew, Second rescue can pull 2 1/2 and monitor D side exposure. All resources are working Command needs to evaluate and consider an all hands providing the scene with a 3rd engine and rescue, moves mutual aid companies into the City to cover addition call. As far as the h*** I found by the stairs I would advise command to issue warning to all companies entering and maybe have a member of the 3rd rescue stand-by and control foot traffic in the area. Fire attack crew of second floor will perform a primary search of the second floor there is higher probability of fire victims due to the time of day. Once the fire has been brought under control I would request PPV from the A side front door. Then over haul.
not a big fan of PPV on initial ops -- have seen too many wierd thinsg -- nothing that good timely venting opposite the attack and at the roof can't do

Anthony Avillo said:
search and evac are a primary concern and tactic. I didn't put a question for it. Still must be conducted. As far as the PPV, not a big fan (no pun intended). We in the northeast have tyoo many buildings with too many voids and unseen compromise. The last thing we want to do is push fire around. That could involve exposures. Always try to keep it to 1 building. Burning up your exposures , as Chief Byrunacini says, is tacky

Noel Marti said:
Couldn't help reading the thread before answering but I think all of the responses were in line with what I was thinking. Good idea with the lighting...we have a squad that is used primarily for support that is an excellent resource to be used at a fire like this. Wouldn't have thought of that on the fire!

Chief, I am assuming by your response that PPV would be wrong? Because I was thinking the same thing only because I think that I would increase visibility tremendously especially for the initial attack. In the SFH that we have responded to where we perform PPV initially as opposed to the ones that we delay due to fear of spreading the fire we have noticed that it runs a lot smoother and faster due to increased visibility. What are your thoughts?

One of the things that I did not see that would be of primary concern would be rescue operations due to the time of day. I would try to make certain that everyone was evacuated from the structure and if not, I would immediately begin rescue operations and set up my RIT team and have them check for secondary means of egress. Also, I would consider protecting that shed in the back since the fire is coming from the back of the structure and shed's normally have a lot of combustible materials in them.

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