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It has been a little slow here in the Start Water group, so I thought I would start a new thread to get the pace back up a bit....

This scenario is very near and dear to my heart. So here it goes...

You are part of a 3 piece Engine Co. (1 Boss, 1 Driver, and 1 FF) You arrive first due at a working fire in a two-story PD. Fire on the #2 floor. You work for a department that does not have a Truck Company staffed or perhaps only one, but it is assigned to another run. Do your tactics change from the norm, or do you operate as normal?

Are you concerned about truck work? Who will throw ladders for egress? What about ventilation? Most importantly, WHO DOES THE SEARCH?

This is the "Start Water" group, but what if we have no truck????

(I don't have one by the way)

Views: 263

Replies to This Discussion

Yeah that shouldn't be a problem, I am in the firehouse tomorrow and will be able to get it. Question, would you prefer me to post it here or send it to you via email? If the latter then I need your email address.

Jim Vena

Ricky Teter said:
Jim,
If you have your SOG on "first ten minutes" in an electronic form that you could e-mail, I would be interested in seeing it. It sounds like a great tool to build a base for our vollies.

Thanks

Jim Vena said:
Brian,

No ball busting here, I do the same thing with my 3 man engine. I do the 360 while the back-step FF stretches the line to the entry point with the driver/operator. We make entry, get water on the fire until it is confined and then I peel off to start a search. We remain in radio contact. Once water is started, the driver/operator works to establish a water supply and then throws a ladder to the 2nd floor. No specific location, just in an area where it can be easily "flopped" where it is needed. The driver/operator now starts ventilation. As you stated, this is not the safest means of getting the job done, but it is how we run based on our manpower situation. We have an SOG on this as to cover critical tasks of the "first ten minutes" of a working fire and we train on it. The first ten minutes is generally the time the duty crew is operating alone until our volunteers turn out and recalled career FF's start to arrive. Again, it's not the best or the safest, but it is what we have to work with.

Brian Arnold said:
Eric,
For me the tactics don't really change but it raises a flag in my mind that tasks are not being accomplished as quickly as I would like and if we can't make a change in fire conditions quickly my "engine boss" senses are heightened that much more. I routinely mark my entry point (usually the front door) for my nozzleman by setting the irons at the door I want us to make entry into. This comes in handy for Forcible entry since I'm used to dealing with bars quite often. I finish my size up with a hook in hand and take windows if indicated prior to our entry. If the truck is delayed I know additional ventilation will be delayed, thus my senses tell me it may be a little hotter in this one than I really care for but the job still has to be done. I'm probably going to get some ball bustin on this but I'll throw it out there anyway. After a knock is done on the fire I'll peel off my nozzleman for a quick search of adjoining rooms and if help is too far out I may do the entire structure depending on conditions. I know what all the Safety Guru's will say "work in pairs, stay together, no freelancing" but it's not unsafe as long as the crew has the training and knowlege, radio communications, discipline, etc. I won't leave a probie on the nob unless I know we've put the fire out, but once the fire is out my priorities have changed. The nozzleman knows his job, as the boss I know mine and will keep command informed of conditions and actions. Most fires in our SFD are ranch style homes that can be handled by 6-8 guys ready to go to work and not screw around in the front yard worrying about where they are going to plug into the IMS chart. Fire Attack, Search, Ventilation is routinely handled before the arrival of a truck company in many parts of our response area (660 sq. miles). It's all about getting the job done, regardless of how many firefighters we have in the first 10 min. That's a seperate discussion on some other blog. We train for the worst and hope for the best. While Hope isn't an effective strategy, our daily training is and I have alot of faith in my crew and our house.
Thanks Jim
If you would like to post it here so that others have access to it also, that would be great.


Jim Vena said:
Yeah that shouldn't be a problem, I am in the firehouse tomorrow and will be able to get it. Question, would you prefer me to post it here or send it to you via email? If the latter then I need your email address.

Jim Vena

Ricky Teter said:
Jim,
If you have your SOG on "first ten minutes" in an electronic form that you could e-mail, I would be interested in seeing it. It sounds like a great tool to build a base for our vollies.

Thanks

Jim Vena said:
Brian,

No ball busting here, I do the same thing with my 3 man engine. I do the 360 while the back-step FF stretches the line to the entry point with the driver/operator. We make entry, get water on the fire until it is confined and then I peel off to start a search. We remain in radio contact. Once water is started, the driver/operator works to establish a water supply and then throws a ladder to the 2nd floor. No specific location, just in an area where it can be easily "flopped" where it is needed. The driver/operator now starts ventilation. As you stated, this is not the safest means of getting the job done, but it is how we run based on our manpower situation. We have an SOG on this as to cover critical tasks of the "first ten minutes" of a working fire and we train on it. The first ten minutes is generally the time the duty crew is operating alone until our volunteers turn out and recalled career FF's start to arrive. Again, it's not the best or the safest, but it is what we have to work with.

Brian Arnold said:
Eric,
For me the tactics don't really change but it raises a flag in my mind that tasks are not being accomplished as quickly as I would like and if we can't make a change in fire conditions quickly my "engine boss" senses are heightened that much more. I routinely mark my entry point (usually the front door) for my nozzleman by setting the irons at the door I want us to make entry into. This comes in handy for Forcible entry since I'm used to dealing with bars quite often. I finish my size up with a hook in hand and take windows if indicated prior to our entry. If the truck is delayed I know additional ventilation will be delayed, thus my senses tell me it may be a little hotter in this one than I really care for but the job still has to be done. I'm probably going to get some ball bustin on this but I'll throw it out there anyway. After a knock is done on the fire I'll peel off my nozzleman for a quick search of adjoining rooms and if help is too far out I may do the entire structure depending on conditions. I know what all the Safety Guru's will say "work in pairs, stay together, no freelancing" but it's not unsafe as long as the crew has the training and knowlege, radio communications, discipline, etc. I won't leave a probie on the nob unless I know we've put the fire out, but once the fire is out my priorities have changed. The nozzleman knows his job, as the boss I know mine and will keep command informed of conditions and actions. Most fires in our SFD are ranch style homes that can be handled by 6-8 guys ready to go to work and not screw around in the front yard worrying about where they are going to plug into the IMS chart. Fire Attack, Search, Ventilation is routinely handled before the arrival of a truck company in many parts of our response area (660 sq. miles). It's all about getting the job done, regardless of how many firefighters we have in the first 10 min. That's a seperate discussion on some other blog. We train for the worst and hope for the best. While Hope isn't an effective strategy, our daily training is and I have alot of faith in my crew and our house.
The SOG is attached below. We have it laminated and in the pump compartments on our engines as a resource. Also this is set-up based on our staffing of 1 officer/paramedic and 2 FF/paramedics 24/7 and 1 additional FF/paramedic M-F 08:00-16:30.

A few notes (these are on the cover sheet of the SOG):

FF-E = firefighter assigned to the engine
FF-A = firefighter assigned to the ambulance (this FF follows behind the engine and is our "back step FF").
OVF = Outside vent firefighter

All duties assigned to FF-E Pump/OVF are not intended to be completed solely by that FF, but rather critical tasks that need to be accomplished as additional firefighters become available.

Any questions/comments or need for further explanation, let me know,

Ricky Teter said:
Thanks Jim
If you would like to post it here so that others have access to it also, that would be great.
Jim Vena said:
Yeah that shouldn't be a problem, I am in the firehouse tomorrow and will be able to get it. Question, would you prefer me to post it here or send it to you via email? If the latter then I need your email address.

Jim Vena

Ricky Teter said:
Jim,
If you have your SOG on "first ten minutes" in an electronic form that you could e-mail, I would be interested in seeing it. It sounds like a great tool to build a base for our vollies.

Thanks

Jim Vena said:
Brian,

No ball busting here, I do the same thing with my 3 man engine. I do the 360 while the back-step FF stretches the line to the entry point with the driver/operator. We make entry, get water on the fire until it is confined and then I peel off to start a search. We remain in radio contact. Once water is started, the driver/operator works to establish a water supply and then throws a ladder to the 2nd floor. No specific location, just in an area where it can be easily "flopped" where it is needed. The driver/operator now starts ventilation. As you stated, this is not the safest means of getting the job done, but it is how we run based on our manpower situation. We have an SOG on this as to cover critical tasks of the "first ten minutes" of a working fire and we train on it. The first ten minutes is generally the time the duty crew is operating alone until our volunteers turn out and recalled career FF's start to arrive. Again, it's not the best or the safest, but it is what we have to work with.

Brian Arnold said:
Eric,
For me the tactics don't really change but it raises a flag in my mind that tasks are not being accomplished as quickly as I would like and if we can't make a change in fire conditions quickly my "engine boss" senses are heightened that much more. I routinely mark my entry point (usually the front door) for my nozzleman by setting the irons at the door I want us to make entry into. This comes in handy for Forcible entry since I'm used to dealing with bars quite often. I finish my size up with a hook in hand and take windows if indicated prior to our entry. If the truck is delayed I know additional ventilation will be delayed, thus my senses tell me it may be a little hotter in this one than I really care for but the job still has to be done. I'm probably going to get some ball bustin on this but I'll throw it out there anyway. After a knock is done on the fire I'll peel off my nozzleman for a quick search of adjoining rooms and if help is too far out I may do the entire structure depending on conditions. I know what all the Safety Guru's will say "work in pairs, stay together, no freelancing" but it's not unsafe as long as the crew has the training and knowlege, radio communications, discipline, etc. I won't leave a probie on the nob unless I know we've put the fire out, but once the fire is out my priorities have changed. The nozzleman knows his job, as the boss I know mine and will keep command informed of conditions and actions. Most fires in our SFD are ranch style homes that can be handled by 6-8 guys ready to go to work and not screw around in the front yard worrying about where they are going to plug into the IMS chart. Fire Attack, Search, Ventilation is routinely handled before the arrival of a truck company in many parts of our response area (660 sq. miles). It's all about getting the job done, regardless of how many firefighters we have in the first 10 min. That's a seperate discussion on some other blog. We train for the worst and hope for the best. While Hope isn't an effective strategy, our daily training is and I have alot of faith in my crew and our house.
Attachments:
Thanks for the post Jim, I like this concept for my vollies where we never know who or how many we are going to have on scene. Something like this can also help those inexperienced incident commanders by giving them a guide they can refer to. Good stuff!

Jim Vena said:
The SOG is attached below. We have it laminated and in the pump compartments on our engines as a resource. Also this is set-up based on our staffing of 1 officer/paramedic and 2 FF/paramedics 24/7 and 1 additional FF/paramedic M-F 08:00-16:30.

A few notes (these are on the cover sheet of the SOG):

FF-E = firefighter assigned to the engine
FF-A = firefighter assigned to the ambulance (this FF follows behind the engine and is our "back step FF").
OVF = Outside vent firefighter

All duties assigned to FF-E Pump/OVF are not intended to be completed solely by that FF, but rather critical tasks that need to be accomplished as additional firefighters become available.

Any questions/comments or need for further explanation, let me know,

Ricky Teter said:
Thanks Jim
If you would like to post it here so that others have access to it also, that would be great.
Jim Vena said:
Yeah that shouldn't be a problem, I am in the firehouse tomorrow and will be able to get it. Question, would you prefer me to post it here or send it to you via email? If the latter then I need your email address.

Jim Vena

Ricky Teter said:
Jim,
If you have your SOG on "first ten minutes" in an electronic form that you could e-mail, I would be interested in seeing it. It sounds like a great tool to build a base for our vollies.

Thanks

Jim Vena said:
Brian,

No ball busting here, I do the same thing with my 3 man engine. I do the 360 while the back-step FF stretches the line to the entry point with the driver/operator. We make entry, get water on the fire until it is confined and then I peel off to start a search. We remain in radio contact. Once water is started, the driver/operator works to establish a water supply and then throws a ladder to the 2nd floor. No specific location, just in an area where it can be easily "flopped" where it is needed. The driver/operator now starts ventilation. As you stated, this is not the safest means of getting the job done, but it is how we run based on our manpower situation. We have an SOG on this as to cover critical tasks of the "first ten minutes" of a working fire and we train on it. The first ten minutes is generally the time the duty crew is operating alone until our volunteers turn out and recalled career FF's start to arrive. Again, it's not the best or the safest, but it is what we have to work with.

Brian Arnold said:
Eric,
For me the tactics don't really change but it raises a flag in my mind that tasks are not being accomplished as quickly as I would like and if we can't make a change in fire conditions quickly my "engine boss" senses are heightened that much more. I routinely mark my entry point (usually the front door) for my nozzleman by setting the irons at the door I want us to make entry into. This comes in handy for Forcible entry since I'm used to dealing with bars quite often. I finish my size up with a hook in hand and take windows if indicated prior to our entry. If the truck is delayed I know additional ventilation will be delayed, thus my senses tell me it may be a little hotter in this one than I really care for but the job still has to be done. I'm probably going to get some ball bustin on this but I'll throw it out there anyway. After a knock is done on the fire I'll peel off my nozzleman for a quick search of adjoining rooms and if help is too far out I may do the entire structure depending on conditions. I know what all the Safety Guru's will say "work in pairs, stay together, no freelancing" but it's not unsafe as long as the crew has the training and knowlege, radio communications, discipline, etc. I won't leave a probie on the nob unless I know we've put the fire out, but once the fire is out my priorities have changed. The nozzleman knows his job, as the boss I know mine and will keep command informed of conditions and actions. Most fires in our SFD are ranch style homes that can be handled by 6-8 guys ready to go to work and not screw around in the front yard worrying about where they are going to plug into the IMS chart. Fire Attack, Search, Ventilation is routinely handled before the arrival of a truck company in many parts of our response area (660 sq. miles). It's all about getting the job done, regardless of how many firefighters we have in the first 10 min. That's a seperate discussion on some other blog. We train for the worst and hope for the best. While Hope isn't an effective strategy, our daily training is and I have alot of faith in my crew and our house.

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