Question on Ithe Initial Fire Ground Size Up

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brenda Tenney on November 10, 2008 at 10:25pm

Thanks Chris,for your reply,I have only been on the Fire dept for about 5 years,and i am still learning ,more day by day,,,I don't know all the fancy words,But,i do know how to put out and fire,and be and first responder..Thanks Brenda

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 13, 2008 at 9:28am

Art Zern said:

Frank and Jim,

Perhaps a little further explanation is in order. RECEO or RECEO VS is generally used as a strategy prompt.
R - Rescue
E - Exposures
C - Confinement
E - Extinguishment
V - Ventilation
S - Salvage

This acronym can be used by Incident Commanders or initial arriving officers to assist in determining a strategy and prioritizing strategic issues. It is often mistakenly seen as a tactical prompt or initial size-up tool, which it is not.

Let me explain; Strategy is the overall plan that will be used to control the incident.
Strategies are broad in nature and are achieved by the completion of tactics. and tasks.

Tactics, on the other hand, are the specific operations that must be accomplished to achieve the strategies. Tactics must be both specific and measurable.

As the IC begins to develop his/her initial strategy, an evaluation (size-up) must be made to determine the strategic priorities. If Rescue is determined to be the most pressing issue and therefore the highest Strategic priority, then all tactics selected must support Rescue as the Strategic priority. This may mean stretching the initial hoseline to protect the interior stairs and placing the line between the fire and occupants. It may also mean venting for life along with an aggressive primary search. These are all tactics and tasks that support the Strategic priority of Rescue.

When RECEO VS is seen as a Tactical prompt, the IC may mistakenly see a primery search as the tactical priority when in fact, an aggressive, coordinated fire attack along with ventilation may be the best initial tactic.

RECEO VS should be used as a Strategic prompt to determine the incident’s Strategic priorities. Then, all tactics and tasks selected should, at least initially, support the Strategic priority.

Art

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 13, 2008 at 9:35am

So Art what you are saying is the RECEO is a startegic prompt to determine what the priorities are on the scene. That's a good guide for the big picture. Thanks for the clarification, I like it. Being a chief of the dept. what do you have as a policy on the go inside or not for the first few arriving companies? It seems that this is a problem in recent firefighter deaths.

Art Zern said:

Frank and Jim,

Perhaps a little further explanation is in order. RECEO or RECEO VS is generally used as a strategy prompt.
R - Rescue
E - Exposures
C - Confinement
E - Extinguishment
V - Ventilation
S - Salvage

This acronym can be used by Incident Commanders or initial arriving officers to assist in determining a strategy and prioritizing strategic issues. It is often mistakenly seen as a tactical prompt or initial size-up tool, which it is not.

Let me explain; Strategy is the overall plan that will be used to control the incident.
Strategies are broad in nature and are achieved by the completion of tactics. and tasks.

Tactics, on the other hand, are the specific operations that must be accomplished to achieve the strategies. Tactics must be both specific and measurable.

As the IC begins to develop his/her initial strategy, an evaluation (size-up) must be made to determine the strategic priorities. If Rescue is determined to be the most pressing issue and therefore the highest Strategic priority, then all tactics selected must support Rescue as the Strategic priority. This may mean stretching the initial hoseline to protect the interior stairs and placing the line between the fire and occupants. It may also mean venting for life along with an aggressive primary search. These are all tactics and tasks that support the Strategic priority of Rescue.

When RECEO VS is seen as a Tactical prompt, the IC may mistakenly see a primery search as the tactical priority when in fact, an aggressive, coordinated fire attack along with ventilation may be the best initial tactic.

RECEO VS should be used as a Strategic prompt to determine the incident’s Strategic priorities. Then, all tactics and tasks selected should, at least initially, support the Strategic priority.

Art

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 13, 2008 at 9:41am

It sounds like the size up of the situation was not to go inside the building and that's good. Those old buildings burn hot because of there is alot of wood once it gets going. Was there any talk during the evaluation of the situation about going inside to search for squatters or vagrants? Or just not to put any FF's in danger in this vacant house?

Brenda Tenney said:

Jim,I went to and scene not to long ago ,structure fire.The house was built around 1914,Am talking about when they made homes out of fat ladder wood.The house went up in huge flames in no time. The house was being ,under new structure ,no electricity. This was and arson fire..I was second on the scene ,no way could no one go in,that is how bad this fire was.
I lived only one block away,the fire started around 12:15,at night,we worked though the night,around 4 in the morning ,we got the fire out..,this was and huge old house,Yes,we had and size up.,,the thing about old ,old homes is,they burn in such a fury flames,the fire fighters could not get that close to the structure..We had 3 fire dept there.,
I think our fire department sized up the scene as best as we could,from the four corners of the structure ,of the home..
That i mean,we knew how many men,woman from our dept, was at the scene,what was coming down..and going on.
We stayed at the scene until investigators got their...

Permalink Reply by Frank Ricci on November 13, 2008 at 9:52am

It has become a little easier here in Arizona with all the foreclosures, which this one is easy and even the newest Officer should know if it vacant and burning we will not risk it, we will go defensive from the get go and then switch strategies if I or my Safety Officer feel it is safe to enter the structure. I feel you just need really good scene reports and good Captains when they arrive to make the right call, as I have stated in other forums and have a taking a beating on it, if the customer is in the room that is actively burning and it is rolling we are looking at a recovery not a rescue we will not commit resources to the rescue, but we will focus our efforts on suppressing the fire. Rereading the initial question, you just really need to have a good handle on building construction and fire behavior. Especially here in Arizona with the clay tile roofs over OSB and lightweight trusses we literally have about 16-17 minutes from the time the fire starts free burning before we can failure. I think it comes back down to the simple basic need of TRAINING, TRAINING, and TRAINING.

Jim Mason said:

So Art what you are saying is the RECEO is a startegic prompt to determine what the priorities are on the scene. That's a good guide for the big picture. Thanks for the clarification, I like it. Being a chief of the dept. what do you have as a policy on the go inside or not for the first few arriving companies? It seems that this is a problem in recent firefighter deaths.

Art Zern said:

Frank and Jim,

Perhaps a little further explanation is in order. RECEO or RECEO VS is generally used as a strategy prompt.
R - Rescue
E - Exposures
C - Confinement
E - Extinguishment
V - Ventilation
S - Salvage

This acronym can be used by Incident Commanders or initial arriving officers to assist in determining a strategy and prioritizing strategic issues. It is often mistakenly seen as a tactical prompt or initial size-up tool, which it is not.

Let me explain; Strategy is the overall plan that will be used to control the incident.
Strategies are broad in nature and are achieved by the completion of tactics. and tasks.

Tactics, on the other hand, are the specific operations that must be accomplished to achieve the strategies. Tactics must be both specific and measurable.

As the IC begins to develop his/her initial strategy, an evaluation (size-up) must be made to determine the strategic priorities. If Rescue is determined to be the most pressing issue and therefore the highest Strategic priority, then all tactics selected must support Rescue as the Strategic priority. This may mean stretching the initial hoseline to protect the interior stairs and placing the line between the fire and occupants. It may also mean venting for life along with an aggressive primary search. These are all tactics and tasks that support the Strategic priority of Rescue.

When RECEO VS is seen as a Tactical prompt, the IC may mistakenly see a primery search as the tactical priority when in fact, an aggressive, coordinated fire attack along with ventilation may be the best initial tactic.

RECEO VS should be used as a Strategic prompt to determine the incident’s Strategic priorities. Then, all tactics and tasks selected should, at least initially, support the Strategic priority.

Art

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 16, 2008 at 12:02pm

I think there are really four critical size up factors that can only be recognized on the scene. The are inter-related and some times one is more imprtant than the others. This one or that one will be the most important factor to determine if we be working safely or not. These are Construction ,Location and extent of the fire, occupancy and Life Hazard. Everything else can be evaluated prior to arriving on the scene or even in a district wide pre planning program.

For example if there are truss that may be the most critical factor because the small amount of fire inside the building can be expected to collapse the building, but the same amount of fire in a platform constructed buiding would not be that big an problem.
Another example would be occupancy - in a residential building we would make a primary search if there was a report of some one still inside the buidling where as in big box store we would not necassary make the same primary search with the same report because it would be a rope search with limited manning. And we would be likely be the only life hazard inside the buidling anyway. These are just general examples and not absolutes. I believe that officers, espicially the first due officers, on the fire ground must be able to make the decisions to go or not to go (inside ) based on these four critical size up factors. This will make us safer on the scene.

Frank Ricci said:

It has become a little easier here in Arizona with all the foreclosures, which this one is easy and even the newest Officer should know if it vacant and burning we will not risk it, we will go defensive from the get go and then switch strategies if I or my Safety Officer feel it is safe to enter the structure. I feel you just need really good scene reports and good Captains when they arrive to make the right call, as I have stated in other forums and have a taking a beating on it, if the customer is in the room that is actively burning and it is rolling we are looking at a recovery not a rescue we will not commit resources to the rescue, but we will focus our efforts on suppressing the fire. Rereading the initial question, you just really need to have a good handle on building construction and fire behavior. Especially here in Arizona with the clay tile roofs over OSB and lightweight trusses we literally have about 16-17 minutes from the time the fire starts free burning before we can failure. I think it comes back down to the simple basic need of TRAINING, TRAINING, and TRAINING.

Jim Mason said:

So Art what you are saying is the RECEO is a startegic prompt to determine what the priorities are on the scene. That's a good guide for the big picture. Thanks for the clarification, I like it. Being a chief of the dept. what do you have as a policy on the go inside or not for the first few arriving companies? It seems that this is a problem in recent firefighter deaths.

Art Zern said:

Frank and Jim,

Perhaps a little further explanation is in order. RECEO or RECEO VS is generally used as a strategy prompt.
R - Rescue
E - Exposures
C - Confinement
E - Extinguishment
V - Ventilation
S - Salvage

This acronym can be used by Incident Commanders or initial arriving officers to assist in determining a strategy and prioritizing strategic issues. It is often mistakenly seen as a tactical prompt or initial size-up tool, which it is not.

Let me explain; Strategy is the overall plan that will be used to control the incident.
Strategies are broad in nature and are achieved by the completion of tactics. and tasks.

Tactics, on the other hand, are the specific operations that must be accomplished to achieve the strategies. Tactics must be both specific and measurable.

As the IC begins to develop his/her initial strategy, an evaluation (size-up) must be made to determine the strategic priorities. If Rescue is determined to be the most pressing issue and therefore the highest Strategic priority, then all tactics selected must support Rescue as the Strategic priority. This may mean stretching the initial hoseline to protect the interior stairs and placing the line between the fire and occupants. It may also mean venting for life along with an aggressive primary search. These are all tactics and tasks that support the Strategic priority of Rescue.

When RECEO VS is seen as a Tactical prompt, the IC may mistakenly see a primery search as the tactical priority when in fact, an aggressive, coordinated fire attack along with ventilation may be the best initial tactic.

RECEO VS should be used as a Strategic prompt to determine the incident’s Strategic priorities. Then, all tactics and tasks selected should, at least initially, support the Strategic priority.

Art

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on December 5, 2008 at 5:56pm

Dave
We do SCSCVEOS which is similar to yours.
Size Up
Call For Help - (call for any needed help after your size up)
Save Lives (ours first then theirs, which mean stay outside if need be)
Confine the Fire (Cut off extension to exposures either vertically or horizontally as in next door structures)
Ventilate
Extiguish
Over haul
Salvage
We actually use this in our oral exams for promotions and in real life because it gets us from start to finish. The fire will go out if we use this properly. there is anrticle in the FE archieves called 'The Chicago Firefighting Action Plan" if you're interested, from about 3 years ago.

Dave LeBlanc said:

Jim,

A little late in finding this one, but there is some great stuff here. COLL, nice. Another new goodie for my bag of tricks.

Art Strategy vs Tactics point is a good one. I was taught S S L E E V E S. It is an "Order of Operation" or strategic prompt. Many refer to it as a method of size up. Size Up, Sufficient help, Life Hazard (Us and Them), Exposures, Entry, Ventilation, Extinguishment and Salvage and Overhaul.

The difference between the doing and what needs to be done is huge, and that is a great explanation.

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